> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:04:22 -0400
> From: Susan Harris <[log in to unmask]>
> Ah, now, we're getting somewhere. You say those 'Welsh forts' turned out to
> be Native American mounds. Conclusively? What's your source?
On the contrary, what's the source for them being Welsh forts? Which
were excavated and what finds that could be linked to Welsh finds
were made, how did that sites date, and by which method was this
dating come to? And how similar in construction and layout were they
to Welsh forts? To Welsh forts of which date?
The point is that the likelyhoood for these allegedly "Welsh" forts
to be Native American constructions of some kind is much more likely
then them being actually Welsh forts. So the conclusive evidence
should be brought forward to show that they are Welsh forts, and not
the other way round.
Even more, what are Welsh forts? By the time Madog allegedly left for
America, in the late 12th century, the Welsh built castles, at least
if they were nobles. Castles which at least had been influenced by
early Norman castle architecture. Madog would have been a
contemporary of Henry II. and Richard I.. He probably would have
known, maybe would even have been a relative of Giraldus Cambrensis,
who travelled through Wales in 1188 and left us an extant document
about Wales and the Welsh.
> The Spanish word vaquero, meaning, literally, cow man, but essentially the
> same as our cowboy, was borrowed into American English of the Old West as
> buckaroo. The Spanish 'v' is pronounced as a light 'b', commonly referred to
> as v-chica as opposed to b-grande, the hard b. If we didn't know the origin
> of buckaroo we would still detect the similar pronunciation and (identical)
> meaning of the two words. I think probably all languages have borrowed words
> and made them their own.
Yes, and would any of such loanwords exist in Mandan, doubtlessly some
linguists would already have detected them. You know, you can become
famous as a linguist if you detect such a connection.
> My point is just this: Mandan language might easily have borrowed, or
> incorporated, some Welsh words and culture.
If, and this is the big point, anybody from Wales really came to them
at such an early stage. But here the primary question is: what words
are that, specifically? Is it something which really obviously
doesn't fit into the Mandan language, like, lets say "Llyn", meaning
"valley" in Welsh, appearing as a word at least identical in
pronouncation in the Mandan language, or are it more dubious words
like a untypical word for "fish" in Welsh and a word in Mandan, which
sounds approximatly similar, meaning something distantly related to
And what cultural features are those the Mandans borrowed from the
Welsh? Anything specifically Welsh, which is really typical for Wales
> In fact, I'd be surprised to
> find this wasn't the case, if in fact Madoc's people joined with the Mandan.
> This doesn't suggest the group 'became' the Mandan at all, only that they
> were in close contact.
In fact, I'd rather be surprised if Madoc's people joined with the
Mandan and still there wasn't found a single piece of good evidence,
like, say, a 12th century spearpoint from Iron, a longsword, a piece
of pottery, a piece of jewellery, anything. Such an object would
be that extremely different from anything to be found in America that
it could not simply be ignored. But nothing. I mean, if Madoc moved
there with some hundred armed men, they should have left at least a
little bit of their equipment to find for us. Or did they throw away
all their earthly posessions when they left Wales?
RAY (Raimund Karl,University of Vienna,Dep.of Prehistory)
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