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CELTIC-L  April 1997

CELTIC-L April 1997

Subject:

Re: Ancients Celts in Colorado?

From:

Lowell & Nancy McFarland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:07:32 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

> > From:Julie Warriner <[log in to unmask]>
> > I was wondering if anyone has heard about ancient Celts visiting near
> > Springfield, Colorado.  There is a place called Picture Canyon near the
> > Colorado, Oklahoma border that has a cave with Ogham writting in it.  It is
> > lit up by the sun during the feast of Beltane during the Spring and Fall
> > Solstice.  Archeologists around here would like to say that it is just
> > markings made by Indians.

> Raimund Karl <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Well, I don't know the markings, but I'd believe them. There has been
> found no hint at any presence of Celts in America that can be
> considered genuine. Most of those allegedly "ogham" inscriptions are
> either no ogham at all, or read out as complete nonsense. Those who
> don't have in any case I know of been shown to be fakes, as they, for
> instance, are written in modern Welsh, not old Irish or Welsh, or in
> no Celtic language at all.
>
This is a good, but very controversial issue.
The question is not just Ogham in Colorado, but the questions of how old
are
Celts, where do they come from, did they cross the Atlantic and settle
in the
Americas, how far did the virtual Celtic Nation reach (ie, the
Taklimakan,
Gobi, Desert in China or Northern India), etc.
CELTIC-L is probably one of the best forums to air all sides and to find
the
latest elements to these questions.
Ray indicates the accepted archaeological theories about these questions
and that Celts did not travel to America - thus Colorado Ogham is
falacious.
Others claim (& me) that "we don't know yet what we don't know" and that
our
knowledge of the virtual Celtic World is rapidly expanding in age,
breadth
and precision with new and modern scientific techniques and findings.

With the scientifically certified (leading forensic DNA scientist in
Germany)
findings that 12 ancient Egyptian Mummies in Germany and England possess
High
Andean Cocaine (never grown in Europe or Africa) and American tobacco in
high quantities in their hair folicles, the theories of regular
pre-Colombian trans-
Atlantic sailings (also by Celts?) are more acceptable and are getting
new reviews.
Probably Thor Heyerdahl's work and Barry Fell's, America BC, ISBN
0-671-67974-0,
would be a good starting point for you on trans-Atlantic, pre-Colombian
travels.
Posts about the Cocaine Mummies can be found in the archives or old
posts in;
http://www.dejanews.com

There is a lot more including Celtic Torcs in England and Ireland
predating
Hallstatt and La Tene and the possibility of ancient Celts being found
in
the Taklimakan Desert in the Gobi Desert of China and dated to 4,000
years ago,
but more to your Colorado Ogham question - here are some references -
most
taken from Patrick Huyghe's Columbus Was Last, Hyperion Press, NY,
ISBN 1-56282-940-8;
A series of articles by Gene Ballinger, The Courier Newspaper, ??, New
Mexico,
USPS 413-110, December 1994, March, May, August, etc., 1995 (Back Issue
Reprints
1-800-439-4304) about possible Ogham Petrogylphs in America,
Ashe, Geoffrey, Land to the West, Viking, NY, 1962
Bailey, James, Sailing to Paradise, Simon & Shuster, NY, 1994
Bradner, John H, and Harvey Laudin, America's Prehistoric Pilgrims,
Science
Digest, May 1981
Cline, Donald, The Los Lunas Stone, Epigraphic Society Occasional
Publications,
Vol. 10, October 1982
Cyr, Donald, Exploring Rock Art, Stonehenge Viewpoint, Santa Barbara,
1989
Davies, Nigel, Voagers to the New World, Morrow, NY, 1979
Dorn, Ronald, Age Determination of Petrogylphs in Southeast Colorado,
Southwestern Lore, Vol. 56, No. 2, 1990
Farley, Gloria & Clyde Keeler, Anubis in Oklahoma, Epigraphic Society
Occasional Publications, Vol. 7, April 1979
Feder, Kenneth, Frauds, Myths and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience
in Archaeology, Mountain View, California, Mayfield, 1990
Fell, Barry, America BC, Pocket Books, NY, 1989
Fingerhut, Eugene, Who First Discovered America?, Claremont, California,
Regina, 1984
Gordon, Cyrus, Before Columbus; Links Between the Old World and Ancient
America,
Crown, NY, 1971
Jett, Stephen, Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Contacts, Freeman, San
Francisco, 1978
Kelly, David, Proto-Tifinagh and Proto-Ogham in the Americas, The Review
of
Archaeology, Vol. 11, Spring 1990
Little, Turtle, The [Barry] Fell Trilogy: Synopses and Commentary, New
England
Antiquities Research Association Journal, Vol. 19, No. 4, 1985
Luce, J.V., Ancient Explorers, The Quest for America, Praeger, NY, 1971
McGlone, William, The Epigraphic Controversy, Epigraphic Society
Occasional
Publications, Vol. 15, August 1986

Lastly, even scientic theories should be taken with a big grain of salt.
Near me, in South Salem, Westchester County, NY, USA (no relationship to
Salem, Massachusetts, USA), there is a beautiful Cromlech with a 90 ton
capstone, set on five stone pillar points, that has been known to area
American
Indians for over 400 years. A photograph appears in Barry Fell's America
BC.
Two scientific statements are printed on the Cromlech's plaque.
Roughly, they read that the New York State Official Archaeologist has
determined
that this stone [Cromlech] was moved here by the last Glacier, about
12,000 years
ago.
The other statement, from Glaciologists, indicate that a glacier could
easily
move a 90 ton granite stone, but that no glacier in the world has ever
put a
large stone up on five pillar points.

Again, your questions are relative to a good controversy of interest to
(most)
all Celts.
Loch Sloy!
Lowell McFarland  [log in to unmask]

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