Lowell McFarland <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > There is a lot more including Celtic Torcs in England and Ireland
> > predating Hallstatt and La Tene
> Raimund Karl <[log in to unmask]> Wrote:
> Sorry that I have to spell that in capitals and extended, but this
> simply is N O N S E N S E. There of course hasn't been found a
> single Celtic torc in England or Ireland that's predating Hallstatt,
> as I definitly would have heard of it. After all, I'm over ten years
> in archaeological research about the Celts. Would have a Celtic torc
> shown up that could be dated earlier, you can bet on that I would
> have got first hand information on it, as it would be THE
> archaeological sensation of the millenium for everybody working in
> Celtic Studies.
CONGRATULATIONS on the sensation of the millenium to everybody in
No digging involved - all you have to do is go to your favorite
library or bookstore and get some Celtic Studies that were done after
the advent of Carbon-dating.
Two books that positively state that Torcs existed in the Bronze Age
Dr. Michael Ryan [Archaeologist & Keeper of Irish Antiquities
at the National Museum of Ireland], The Illustrated Archaeology of
Ireland, IBSN 0-946172-25-0, and
Leslie & Roy Adkins [Archaeologists with the West London
Archaeological Unit], A Thesaurus of British Archaeology,
IBSN 0-7153-7864-3 UK, IBSN 0-389-20245-2 USA
Bronze Age, pre-Halstatt, dating of Torcs;
"The Tauton phase (Ornament Horizon, Tauton-Barton Bendish phase -
named after Tauton, Somerset, and Barton Bendish, Norfolk [England])
dates from c 1300 BC and is confined mainly to southern Britain.
Knobbed sickles (button sickles), saws and rapiers also belong to the
Tauton phase. Imported and continentally inspired 'ornaments' include
twisted, plain, ribbed and incised TORCS and armlets, coiled
finger-rings, cones, picardy pins...
Local 'ornaments' developed, such as a variety of TORCS and armlets,
including Sussex loops..."
"In the Later Bronze Age a few gold dress fasteners are known from
Scotland, although many more have been found in Ireland. A few gold bar
TORCS are also known, as well as penannular bracelets and rings similar
in design to examples in bronze."
Lesley & Roy Adkins, A Thesaurus of British Archaeology,
ISBN 0-7153-7864-3, & 0-389-20245-2
"Later Bronze Age goldwork.
The [Irish] goldsmiths around 1200 BC seem to have turned their skills
to the development of new metal-working techniques and to the production
of ornaments, known as TORCS, may have been due to influences from east
Mediterranean Europe [Scythians?], but once introduced, the concept of
twisted strips and bars of gold was developed to a very high level, as
is evidenced by the fine example from Tipper, County Kildare [Ireland].
Dr. Michael Ryan, The Illustrated Archaeology of Ireland, ISBN
I found multiple references to Halstatt arriving in the British Isles
only in 600 BC.
I can find no reference to any Halstatt artifacts (Continent or
British Isles) being dated farther back than 1000 BC.
The above references of TORCS from 1200 BC and 1300 BC, Bronze Age,
clearly indicate that my statement that "Celtic Torcs in England and
Ireland predating Hallstatt and La Tene" has a basis and may be more
correct than your opinion.
I believe that the presence of Torcs in the British Isles, predating
Halstatt (and La Tene), is one of the indicators that Celts are much
older than standard Celtic texts indicate.
It may also indicate that existing Celtic Studies and texts may have
to be brought up to date.
Lowell McFarland [log in to unmask]