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CELTIC-L  December 1996

CELTIC-L December 1996

Subject:

Re: Famine Documentary

From:

Tom Willis <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Sun, 8 Dec 1996 15:59:56 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (87 lines)

> > Tom Willis original+ Raimund Karl reponse
&& Tom Willis new


> > Every human being knows in their heart that it is not right to let 1,000,000 innocent people starve.  Especially when you control their country and have oppressed
them for 150 years.

+ Does every human being? Why then did it happen so often in history that no one did
something, that no one cared?

&& The reason evil happens so often in history is that every human being is capable of
choosing either evil or good.   Oftentimes, we choose evil.   The evil in history is
only a mystery if you think people never choose evil.

> > But even beyond the natural law argument, the British Government of the 1840s was well acquainted with, and generally professed, the teachings of Jesus who said, "If you
have two coats, give one away..."

+ What natural law argument? The natural law is live and let die, the stronger one
survives!

&& Natural law is a philosophical tradition which attempts to determine good and evil
without recourse to revelation.  It goes back at least to Aristotle and Socrates.
"Live and let die, the stronger one survives !" is not part of natural law philosophy.

+ Apart from that, this is by no way the only way to live and the only "righteous code
of morale", Christianity by following the infallible pope (an infallacy you hopefully
believe in as a good christian) commited things of unbelievable cruelty (I know the
example has been used to death, but only look at the crusades, and, as another example,
look at Ireland, where the Normans were comissioned by the pope to conquer Ireland

&& The Pope's mission is to strengthen his brothers in faith.  He is only infallible in
matters of faith and morals, and then only when he speaks ex cathedra.  He is not
infallible in politics or economics or war.

&& This is tangential, but we may as well deal with some more false history.  It is very
popular today to slam the Christians for the Crusades.  But the truth is that a war had
been going on between the Moslems and the Christians since the birth of Islam.  A war in
which the Christians lost, generally by Moslem invastion, all of the middle east and
North Africa, and most of Spain.   In fact, the first Crusade was launched only about
seven years after the Moslems invaded and conquered Asia Minor.  The first Crusade's
first battles were to reclaim Asia Minor.

+ so you might equally blame the situation we today have in Ireland as well as the
Famine on the Catholic church) - and, in fact, is still doing so by telling the
uneducated people in the third world that it is gods will that they have as much
children as possible, thereby working directly towards the next big famine where
millions of poor kids will die from hunger.

&& This is not what the Catholic Church teaches.   To quote the Catechism of the
Catholic Church, "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their
children."  The Church does prohibit artificial contraception because it is contrary to
the good of the marriage.  However,  natural family planning methods may be used and are
highly effective.   A recent study in Europe, reported 97.6% effectiveness for a
particular method.

> > I'm afraid there is no way to claim that somehow they didn't know it was wrong to let these people die...

+ Pah, what is there no way? Do you know what the people then knew?  Have you any direct
connection to them? Have you asked them what they knew? You are condemning somebody you
neither knew personally nor have any hints towards his beliefs or knowledge for making
decisions other than you would have made!

&& In fact, we have a lot of documentation on the attitudes and beliefs of upper
class British society at that time.  We certainly have hints !

+ Remember what the bible says? Judge not, lest be judged yourself? He who is without
sin shall throw the first stone? Follow Jesus teachings yourself first, before you claim
somebody else had to know them and acted wrong by not following those parts you
accidentially think of as more important!

&&  It is our duty to rebuke evil actions.  We must witness to what is good.  Jesus
often rebuked evil actions.  "Judge not," does not mean that we cannot say whether a
particular action is evil.  It means that we cannot say whether a person committed a sin
by doing that particular evil action.  To commit a serious sin requires knowledge of the
evil a person is about to commit, and consent.   This is between an individual and God.

> And always remember: Christianity IS NOT the only valid system of
> morality. It is one of many, and we have no way to know which is the
> "correct" one.

&&  There is a way to know which is the correct one.  As Jesus said,  "By their fruits
you shall know them."

Mise le meas,  Tom

> RAY

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