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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2013

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2013

Subject:

Re: An Algedonic Meter!

From:

Jan Kuiper <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:53:19 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (408 lines)

The Algodonic meter that Mike and I designed. Used exactly in the way 
Luc explains: (quote:) "

Again, in my practice of visualizing a „hedonic” measure: the most useful exercise was to make the data available to those who generated it and get the discussion going about the multimodal distribution generated by them.

"
We have the same experience. This meter is used in small teams to get 
the discussion going on what is happening (work, output, Q, 
collaboration) whatever, based on the marks the members make (with their 
avatars) on the meter.



Before we designed this, we experienced with all kinds of excisting 
meters (mostly aps), but they did not fullfill the aims we had with 
'measuring'.

cheers,
Jan Kuiper



Roger Harnden schreef op 31-12-2013 16:00:
> I like what you write, Ern.
>
> Roger
>
>
> On 2013-12-31, at 11:05 AM, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>
>> Hello Luc --
>> If I recall correctly, Stafford wrote that he was the person who 
>> coined the terms algedonode and algedonic, based upon the Greek words 
>> for pain and pleasure. He symbolized this reciprocality graphically 
>> with the electrical symbols for attenuator and amplifier.
>> His VSM mimics what he learned from Warren McCullough about brain 
>> structure and function. Human nerves, when insulated by myelination 
>> like sheathed copper wires, carry electrical impulses only forward or 
>> backward. (Newborn babies gain neurological competence with 
>> myelination; before myelination they "short out".)
>> This two-wayness when properly insulated turns out to be a usable 
>> constraint, because it allows a communication channel of the VSM to 
>> take on a mathematical property (positive versus negative) depending 
>> upon the direction of the flow.
>> Chemically speaking this positive versus negative property is called 
>> valence. While there is a substantial conceptual leap involved from 
>> ion flow to reliably measuring human emotions, the mathematics of the 
>> VSM support that big leap quite reliably.
>> It also brings up an interesting and seldom acknowleged property of 
>> the circulatory system. We are quite comfortable with the notion that 
>> nerves carry electrical impulses. But we know far less about what to 
>> do with the fact that the circulatory system is capable of doing the 
>> same!
>> Blood vessels are loaded with plasma carrying iron-rich platelets. 
>> (Blue blooded crabs have copper in place of iron.) Although blood is 
>> pumped strictly in one direction of a large loop, the circulatory 
>> system is capable of conducting electrical impulses in BOTH directions.
>> In other words, both the nervous system and the circulatory system 
>> parallel to each other exhibit two-way electrical conductance. My 
>> suspicion is that this fact is no mere redundancy, but rather a 
>> demonstration of recursive nesting.
>> There is a third parallel to one-direction functionality coupled with 
>> two-way electrical conductance. Each wet muscle is furnished with 
>> both a point of origin and a point of insertion. This guarantees that 
>> muscular action has a consistent directionality like that of blood, 
>> while allowing electrical flow both ways. So I take this property to 
>> be another demonstration of recursive nesting.
>> My guess from all these clues is that the nervous system is 
>> represented by Beer's Executive Box, the musco-skeletal system is 
>> represented by Beer's System Ones, and the circulatory system 
>> represents all of Beer's networking in between the Executive Box and 
>> System Ones.
>> I realize I'm in /shallow/ water sinking fast with these amateur 
>> conjectures, piling inference upon inference. But emotionally 
>> speaking, these observations bolster my _un_scientific faith in the VSM.
>> Kind regards,
>> Ern
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:54:39 +0100 Luc Hoebeke 
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> writes:
>>
>>     Thanks Ern,
>>
>>     Now I understand your previous comments and even you help me to
>>     make myself more clear.
>>     I never used the hedonometer for having an indication of
>>     happiness as such.
>>     If I remember well the „eudemony” concept of Stafford Beer and
>>     his tentatives to „measure” it, it was not happiness as such, but
>>     an indication of being happy with a well defined issue or
>>     setting. Happy with what? is the right question to ask: without
>>     it to me the measure does not have meaning.
>>
>>     Kind regards,
>>
>>     Luc
>>
>>
>>
>>     Op 31-dec.-2013, om 00:14 heeft Ern Reynolds
>>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> het
>>     volgende geschreven:
>>
>>>     Hi Luc --
>>>     Apologies. One of my bad habits is failing to to fill in the
>>>     gaps of the thought process involved.
>>>     The dual meter scheme might accurately be regarded as the
>>>     Pursuit of Happiness. So it listed supposed results for one
>>>     individual app user, comparing him/her at two locations.
>>>     Two geographic locations (where one actually is versus London)
>>>     represent the environment in the case at hand. The system arises
>>>     to cope with that environment. The human being and his/her
>>>     emotions signal how well or poorly the individual person's
>>>     emotions are adapting to cope with stresses inflicted by either
>>>     environment.
>>>     Happiness is a/very/slippery metric. Bliss is more wisely
>>>     achieved by circular and indirect paths. What I meant when I
>>>     said "get happy" was first find contentment where you are,
>>>     rather than relying on the whining excuse that it lies at some
>>>     other place distant from where you are.
>>>     But most advertising suggests that a direct shortcut is
>>>     available -- flee and relocate (to another pub, another
>>>     companion, another city, another country). Doing so usually is
>>>     not a viable solution. H.L. Mencken said "for every human
>>>     problem there is a solution that is quick, simple -- and wrong."
>>>     Flee and relocate is such a wrong solution.
>>>     Psychological counseling experience strongly suggests that the
>>>     individual patient attempting to adapt to a disturbing
>>>     environment can work only on what s/he can personally control.
>>>     The patient has a much better chance of changing her/his inner
>>>     attitude and reactions, i.e., better understand to adapt, rather
>>>     than trying to alter the surrounding environment to the person's
>>>     whim or taste.
>>>     The interchange between Stefan and yourself had to do with
>>>     the*social mileau*-- a whirling vortex. Insights stated in that
>>>     interchange about 2nd order cybernetics are quite worthwhile and
>>>     sound. It's what behavior is observed with the observer
>>>     explicitly factored in.
>>>     The*social mileau*is a big parameter exerting influence inside
>>>     the system, as well as a powerful variable of the environment
>>>     itself. It's difficult to tease the two impacts of the*social
>>>     mileau*apart. As you said "one can assume that happiness of an
>>>     individual is stronglylinked to the comparison with other human
>>>     beings ... the statistics become extremely complex".
>>>     My three-sentence insight was trying to compress all this into
>>>     what could be "groked" or apprehended quickly.
>>>     So I sent what I wrote, in the spirit of approving and endorsing
>>>     what you had written to Stefan. Again, apologies for the obscurity.
>>>     Ern
>>>     On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 16:50:19 +0100 Luc Hoebeke
>>>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> writes:
>>>
>>>         Sorry, Ern,
>>>
>>>         E-mails apparently masterfully create misunderstandings.
>>>         I cannot see any relation between your answer, and my last
>>>         comment.
>>>
>>>         Kind regards,
>>>
>>>         Luc
>>>
>>>
>>>         Op 30-dec.-2013, om 12:19 heeft Ern Reynolds
>>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> het
>>>         volgende geschreven:
>>>
>>>>         The dual meter "here versus there" comparison strikes me as
>>>>         being based on a bogus therapeutic premise.
>>>>         Bogus premise: I shall be happier by moving to London.
>>>>         Truer premise: First get happy. Only then should one move
>>>>         to London.
>>>>         On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:43:06 +0100 Luc Hoebeke
>>>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>         writes:
>>>>         > Stefan,
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Yes, I only mentioned the top of an iceberg. Just under
>>>>         the water
>>>>         > line one can assume that happiness of an individual is
>>>>         strongly
>>>>         > linked to the comparison with other human beings. We
>>>>         appear to be a
>>>>         > social species. And once relations are part of the game, the
>>>>         > statistics become extremely complex. That is where your
>>>>         second order
>>>>         > cybernetics hint becomes a worthwhile approach.
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Again, in my practice of visualizing a „hedonic” measure:
>>>>         the most
>>>>         > useful exercise was to make the data available to those who
>>>>         > generated it and get the discussion going about the
>>>>         multimodal
>>>>         > distribution generated by them.
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Kind regards,
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Luc
>>>>         >
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Op 30-dec.-2013, om 10:03 heeft Stefan Wasilewski
>>>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>         > het volgende geschreven:
>>>>         >
>>>>         > > Luc,
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > An interesting concept, fraught with complexity well
>>>>         beyond your
>>>>         > "average" problem.
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > Each individual is a complex nested system with their own
>>>>         > reference frame so add to that outside influences and the
>>>>         problem of
>>>>         > observation/meaning then this becomes a good talking
>>>>         point at best.
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > What I do find interesting is the embedded assumption
>>>>         that one
>>>>         > should map continuous against recent changes in a
>>>>         graphical format.
>>>>         > Such data is absorbed far more easily that before.
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > I hope you had a good Xmas Nick!
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > Stefan
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > On 30 Dec 2013, at 08:32, Luc Hoebeke
>>>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>         > wrote:
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > >> Dear Nick,
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> There is a deep flaw in the Hedonometer: the
>>>>         assumption that
>>>>         > happiness has a normal distribution, hence can be averaged!
>>>>         > >> My experience of using „hedonometers” in big groups is
>>>>         that they
>>>>         > behave in a multimodal way. good meter should make this multi
>>>>         > modality visible.
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> Kind regards,
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> Luc
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> Op 30-dec.-2013, om 02:53 heeft Nick Green
>>>>         > <[log in to unmask]
>>>>         <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> het volgende geschreven:
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >http://www.mappiness.org.uk/meters/
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>> Best
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>> N.
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > >>> For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/>
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
>>>>         (MCWE) go
>>>>         > to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>         <http://www.platformforchange.org/>
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>         >https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         > >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>         >http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>         > >>>
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > >> For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/>
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
>>>>         (MCWE) go
>>>>         > to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>         <http://www.platformforchange.org/>
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>         >https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         > >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>         >http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>         > >>
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > >
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > > For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/>
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
>>>>         (MCWE) go to:
>>>>         > www.platformforchange.org <http://www.platformforchange.org/>
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>         >https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>         > >
>>>>         > > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>         >http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>         > >
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         >
>>>>         > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         > For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/>
>>>>         >
>>>>         > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
>>>>         (MCWE) go to:
>>>>         >www.platformforchange.org <http://www.platformforchange.org/>
>>>>         >
>>>>         > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>         >https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>         >
>>>>         > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>         >http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>         > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         >
>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>         For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/>For the Metaphorum
>>>>         Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go
>>>>         to:www.platformforchange.org
>>>>         <http://www.platformforchange.org/>METAPHORUM eList Archive
>>>>         available at
>>>>         -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.htmlArchive of
>>>>         CYBCOM eList available at
>>>>         -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
>>>         more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>         <http://www.metaphorum.org/> For the Metaphorum
>>>         Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>         www.platformforchange.org
>>>         <http://www.platformforchange.org/> METAPHORUM eList Archive
>>>         available at -
>>>         https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>>>         CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>         http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>     For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org
>>>     <http://www.metaphorum.org/>For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>>>     Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org
>>>     <http://www.platformforchange.org/>METAPHORUM eList Archive
>>>     available at
>>>     -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.htmlArchive of
>>>     CYBCOM eList available at
>>>     -http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
>>     more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>     <http://www.metaphorum.org> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>>     Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>     <http://www.platformforchange.org> METAPHORUM eList Archive
>>     available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>     Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>     http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For 
>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org 
>> <http://www.metaphorum.org> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working 
>> Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 
>> <http://www.platformforchange.org> METAPHORUM eList Archive available 
>> at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of 
>> CYBCOM eList available at - 
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more 
> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative 
> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM 
> eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM 
> eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 


-- 

*drs. Jan Kuiper*

*Dirk van Delenhage 26*

*3437 KR Nieuwegein*

*+31 (0)6 53139060*

*+31 (0)30 6051482*

*www.kvdk.nl*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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