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CELTIC-L  May 2012

CELTIC-L May 2012

Subject:

Re: The Celtic chariot lost in time (reliability of documentary evidence)

From:

John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Wed, 16 May 2012 02:29:26 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (292 lines)

Hi Fiona,

No, not a "lucky guess"!

If I were pedantic and had to rely on classification systems, I might 
scoff and say something like "There are no Irish involutes" and even 
"There are no Irish La Tène 2 brooches" -- but classification systems 
are born in present time -- a convenience to anyone who has no "eye" or 
no connoisseurship.

I think that the brooch which might have grabbed your attention is the 
unique form from Clogher, Co. Tyrone, fig. 77a. It can also be seen, on 
the right, here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/artefaque/6521840873/

  Raftery mentions the foot-return which aligns it with the La Tène 2 
types, but (technically) it is neither La Tène 2 nor "pseudo La Tène 2" 
as the return is neither clipped to the bow nor mimics this in a 
casting. But Raftery, also (in his Catalogue of Irish Iron Age 
Antiquities) mentions the subtle trumpet shapes -- which are first cast, 
and then finely tooled -- and this also aligns it to the Ferrybridge 
involute. Raftery stresses its fine workmanship and design and feels 
that it was made for a noble. Curiously, though, he does not discuss 
this brooch in his _La Tène in Ireland_.

Jope sees an "ephemeral" rendition of the Irish bird's head motif in 
this brooch, but more importantly. emphasizes its double-openwork foot 
-- again thus aligning it to the Ferrybridge brooch. He looks backward 
in time to two much earlier German brooches illustrated by Jacobsthal 
(311 and 313) both with the double-openwork foot.

Most important of all, though, he says:

"Some involute brooches seem to show that production of such solid-cast 
brooch-frames went on into the second century B.C., (e.g. pls  46-7). 
Some in this tradition may even be later:  in Ireland the graceful 
Clogher brooch (196n) should by its relief ornament not be seen as 
before the first century B.C. ..." -- He makes the mental connection.

On his timeline, he places all of the Irish brooches roughly starting at 
the end of the involute span. I think that further research into this 
connection is warranted. Your observation reinforces my suspicion that 
the Ferrybridge involute might well be very close to the end of the 
British sequence.

The horror of all of this is that even had the excavators been so 
pedantic as to merely rely on classification systems, they would not 
have made any mistakes about the dating of the site as soon as the 
brooch appeared from the dirt. I also suspect that it was Ian Stead who 
told them what they had. Sadly, neither Jope nor Raftery are with us 
anymore, and I can only imagine that the study of Early Celtic Art in 
the U.K. is on life-support and that the plug might well be pulled at 
any time.

Again, well done!

Cheers,

John


On 5/15/2012 11:02 PM, FIONA GIOLLARUA wrote:
> Hi John
> On closer look, they might be bits of small bone (???) maybe, animal 
> bone of some kind- or perhaps some kind of pottery, as they looked too 
> smooth and regular to be bone...beads maybe?
> I remembered seeing a number of drawings of similar looking broaches 
> in Dr Raftery's book Pagan Celtic Ireland, and it was these drawings 
> which made me think the broach in the photo was suspect.
> Lucky guess!
> Fiona
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:51 pm
> Subject: Re: The Celtic chariot lost in time (reliability of 
> documentary evidence)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > Sorry, Fiona, I forgot to add that I have no idea what those
> > other bits in the photograph are -- something to prop up the
> > brooch for the photo?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John
> >
> > On 5/15/2012 3:35 PM, John Hooker wrote:
> > >Well done Fiona!
> > >
> > >Yes, this is an involute brooch, a British form of the La Tène
> > 2 types:
> > >
> > 
> >http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=567&cat=all 
> <http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=567&cat=all>
> > >
> > >In the catalogue listing, the date range is given as "Late 3rd
> > to early 1st cent BC", however, Martyn Jope illustrates two
> > varieties in his timeline: _Early Celtic Art in the British
> > Isles_, Oxford, 2000, between p.xiv and p.1. The type is
> > discussed on p.48-50. The earliest, which he says might have
> > been made in the last decade or so of the 3rd century BC, has a
> > shallower curve than the later, which he positions at about from
> > 150 to 90 BC. The UKFD example has a profile about midway
> > between the two Jope types.
> > >
> > >Also, the Ferrybridge example is more elaborate and has a
> > distinctive trumpet shape where the bow meets the circular
> > hinge. I would think that this would be fairly late in the
> > sequence as trumpet shapes start to dominate in the La Tène 3 to
> > Roman periods starting ca. 50 BC. It was this time that the La
> > Tène 2 types fell out of fashion. There is a Pannonian "pseudo
> > La Tène 2" variety of the "strongly profiled" type where the
> > definitive way in which the foot returns to attach to the bow is
> > mimicked in a casting rather than clipped to the bow in the
> > wrought examples. This tendency to  strongly profiled
> > brooch designs in later designs might be significant or just
> > coincidental.>
> > >The animal bones in the grave had been "archived" in a
> > different location before they were reburied with the skeleton.
> > The skeleton might even date to the same period as the Roman
> > period feast (bone) remains surrounding the burial.
> > >
> > >The chariot appears to have been put together out of "spare
> > parts" from different vehicles. Some metal parts of the original
> > were missing, and had been replaced with facsimiles of copper-
> > alloy foil (nonfunctional) that had been filled with scrap
> > scale, apparently from the floor of the metal-workshop.
> > >
> > >The big problem was the C14 tests: the grave not only yielded
> > bones of different times, but the c14 tests all gave triple
> > peaks. What the excavators should have done would have been to
> > say that the C14 tests were "inconclusive". That would have been
> > the correct scientific approach. Instead, they "fudged" the
> > results to yield something more definitive and something that
> > might agree with the primary hypothesis. It ended up that they
> > slightly exaggerated the date of the involute types invention,
> > although bringing the dates somewhat later than were reported in
> > the earliest accounts. They also did not mention that this
> > brooch was a very developed version.
> > >
> > >I think it most likely that the burial event was staged at the
> > same time as the Roman period feast, they used old bits of
> > chariots and new facsimile parts, and an antique brooch to
> > decorate the body. The skeleton might have been a captive from
> > Scotland who was sacrificed for the occasion -- we might never
> > know. The artifacts have all been put into storage and might
> > never be displayed again.
> > >
> > >The hypothesis of celebrating an earlier hero (from a lore
> > perspective) might be unconsciously derived from tales like King
> > Arthur being buried with his troops to return again when Britain
> > needs them. A similar legend also exists for Charlemagne and
> > this sort of tale appears to be Medieval in its source.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On 5/15/2012 2:02 PM, FIONA GIOLLARUA wrote:
> > >>I thought the teeth looked too new as well.
> > >>Is it the broach form that is incorrect for the period in question?
> > >>John, what are the ovoid objects in the picture, in front of
> > and to the left of the broach. I saved the photo and expanded
> > it, but still cannot identify what these are, or if it is one item.
> > >>Cheers all.
> > >>Fiona
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:57 pm
> > >>Subject: Re: The Celtic chariot lost in time (reliability of
> > documentary evidence)
> > >>To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Jim,
> > >>>
> > >>> Although that is not what was spotted, it might well be another
> > >>> very useful bit of evidence -- good observation!
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>>
> > >>> John
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 5/15/2012 1:40 PM, jamcavoy wrote:
> > >>> >the teeth are in better shape than the broach (if that is what
> > >>> it is)
> > >>> >
> > >>> >jim
> > >>> >
> > >>> >On 5/15/2012 2:05 PM, John Hooker wrote:
> > >>> >>Hi all,
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>To continue to bring back the subject of the reliability
> > >>> factor to "things Celtic", here is something that I have not
> > >>> brought to this forum, but have discussed elsewhere:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3351130/Secrets-from-
> > tomb-
> > >>> of-the-ancient-unknown-warrior.html
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>Almost everything in this article is wrong, from the
> > dating of
> > >>> burial to the significance of the feast. This is no "pet theory"
> > >>> of mine, and the primary evidence (which is irrefutable) for the
> > >>> truth of my statement lies in the photograph. At first, I
> > >>> thought that I was the only person to spot it, but thanks to a
> > >>> "whistle blower" on the excavation team who wrote to me
> > >>> privately, the truth of the matter started to become "fleshed
> > >>> out". It turned out that one other person had also spotted
> > it --
> > >>> Dr. Ian Stead, but he told the excavators that he wanted no part
> > >>> of it and refused to allow himself to be quoted in the
> > >>> excavation reports.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>At this point in the narrative I have to ask myself if I
> > >>> should tell, or just leave it as a puzzle to be solved. When I
> > >>> pondered, once, about the real value and purpose of studying the
> > >>> past, a friend, who is an emeritus professor of history in the
> > >>> U.S. told me that the purpose was to "exercise the mind and
> > >>> delight the senses".  I suspect that this is true, so I
> > >>> will leave it as a puzzle with the hope that it will provide
> > >>> exercise and delight to others.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>Cheers,
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>John
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >
> > >>> >You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives
> > >>> page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > >>> L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > >>> link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> When I read the newspaper today, I see dead people. I see
> > >>> vampires feeding on my country. I have no power to make them
> > >>> stop. What I can do, however, is to shine a light on them.
> > >>> Phil Agre, Former prof. of information studies, UCLA
> > >>>
> > >>> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives
> > >>> page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > >>> L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > >>> link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> > >>>
> > >>You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list
> > archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > When I read the newspaper today, I see dead people. I see
> > vampires feeding on my country. I have no power to make them
> > stop. What I can do, however, is to shine a light on them.
> > Phil Agre, Former prof. of information studies, UCLA
> >
> > You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives
> > page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> >
> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page 
> at 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting 
> the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription 
> routine there. 


-- 
When I read the newspaper today, I see dead people. I see vampires feeding on my country. I have no power to make them stop. What I can do, however, is to shine a light on them.
Phil Agre, Former prof. of information studies, UCLA

You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.

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