LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L Archives

CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L  May 2012

CELTIC-L May 2012

Subject:

Re: The Celtic chariot lost in time (reliability of documentary evidence)

From:

John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Tue, 15 May 2012 15:35:59 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (175 lines)

Well done Fiona!

Yes, this is an involute brooch, a British form of the La Tène 2 types:

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=567&cat=all 
<http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=567&cat=all>

In the catalogue listing, the date range is given as "Late 3rd to early 
1st cent BC", however, Martyn Jope illustrates two varieties in his 
timeline: _Early Celtic Art in the British Isles_, Oxford, 2000, between 
p.xiv and p.1. The type is discussed on p.48-50. The earliest, which he 
says might have been made in the last decade or so of the 3rd century 
BC, has a shallower curve than the later, which he positions at about 
from 150 to 90 BC. The UKFD example has a profile about midway between 
the two Jope types.

Also, the Ferrybridge example is more elaborate and has a distinctive 
trumpet shape where the bow meets the circular hinge. I would think that 
this would be fairly late in the sequence as trumpet shapes start to 
dominate in the La Tène 3 to Roman periods starting ca. 50 BC. It was 
this time that the La Tène 2 types fell out of fashion. There is a 
Pannonian "pseudo La Tène 2" variety of the "strongly profiled" type 
where the definitive way in which the foot returns to attach to the bow 
is mimicked in a casting rather than clipped to the bow in the wrought 
examples. This tendency to  strongly profiled brooch designs in later 
designs might be significant or just coincidental.

The animal bones in the grave had been "archived" in a different 
location before they were reburied with the skeleton. The skeleton might 
even date to the same period as the Roman period feast (bone) remains 
surrounding the burial.

The chariot appears to have been put together out of "spare parts" from 
different vehicles. Some metal parts of the original were missing, and 
had been replaced with facsimiles of copper-alloy foil (nonfunctional) 
that had been filled with scrap scale, apparently from the floor of the 
metal-workshop.

The big problem was the C14 tests: the grave not only yielded bones of 
different times, but the c14 tests all gave triple peaks. What the 
excavators should have done would have been to say that the C14 tests 
were "inconclusive". That would have been the correct scientific 
approach. Instead, they "fudged" the results to yield something more 
definitive and something that might agree with the primary hypothesis. 
It ended up that they slightly exaggerated the date of the involute 
types invention, although bringing the dates somewhat later than were 
reported in the earliest accounts. They also did not mention that this 
brooch was a very developed version.

I think it most likely that the burial event was staged at the same time 
as the Roman period feast, they used old bits of  chariots and new 
facsimile parts, and an antique brooch to decorate the body. The 
skeleton might have been a captive from Scotland who was sacrificed for 
the occasion -- we might never know. The artifacts have all been put 
into storage and might never be displayed again.

The hypothesis of celebrating an earlier hero (from a lore perspective) 
might be unconsciously derived from tales like King Arthur being buried 
with his troops to return again when Britain needs them. A similar 
legend also exists for Charlemagne and this sort of tale appears to be 
Medieval in its source.

Cheers,

John








On 5/15/2012 2:02 PM, FIONA GIOLLARUA wrote:
> I thought the teeth looked too new as well.
> Is it the broach form that is incorrect for the period in question?
> John, what are the ovoid objects in the picture, in front of and to 
> the left of the broach. I saved the photo and expanded it, but still 
> cannot identify what these are, or if it is one item.
> Cheers all.
> Fiona
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:57 pm
> Subject: Re: The Celtic chariot lost in time (reliability of 
> documentary evidence)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Although that is not what was spotted, it might well be another
> > very useful bit of evidence -- good observation!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/15/2012 1:40 PM, jamcavoy wrote:
> > >the teeth are in better shape than the broach (if that is what
> > it is)
> > >
> > >jim
> > >
> > >On 5/15/2012 2:05 PM, John Hooker wrote:
> > >>Hi all,
> > >>
> > >>To continue to bring back the subject of the reliability
> > factor to "things Celtic", here is something that I have not
> > brought to this forum, but have discussed elsewhere:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3351130/Secrets-from-tomb-
> > of-the-ancient-unknown-warrior.html
> > >>
> > >>Almost everything in this article is wrong, from the dating of
> > burial to the significance of the feast. This is no "pet theory"
> > of mine, and the primary evidence (which is irrefutable) for the
> > truth of my statement lies in the photograph. At first, I
> > thought that I was the only person to spot it, but thanks to a
> > "whistle blower" on the excavation team who wrote to me
> > privately, the truth of the matter started to become "fleshed
> > out". It turned out that one other person had also spotted it --
> > Dr. Ian Stead, but he told the excavators that he wanted no part
> > of it and refused to allow himself to be quoted in the
> > excavation reports.
> > >>
> > >>At this point in the narrative I have to ask myself if I
> > should tell, or just leave it as a puzzle to be solved. When I
> > pondered, once, about the real value and purpose of studying the
> > past, a friend, who is an emeritus professor of history in the
> > U.S. told me that the purpose was to "exercise the mind and
> > delight the senses".  I suspect that this is true, so I
> > will leave it as a puzzle with the hope that it will provide
> > exercise and delight to others.
> > >>
> > >>Cheers,
> > >>
> > >>John
> > >>
> > >
> > >You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives
> > page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > When I read the newspaper today, I see dead people. I see
> > vampires feeding on my country. I have no power to make them
> > stop. What I can do, however, is to shine a light on them.
> > Phil Agre, Former prof. of information studies, UCLA
> >
> > You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives
> > page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-
> > L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L'
> > link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
> >
> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page 
> at 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting 
> the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription 
> routine there. 


-- 
When I read the newspaper today, I see dead people. I see vampires feeding on my country. I have no power to make them stop. What I can do, however, is to shine a light on them.
Phil Agre, Former prof. of information studies, UCLA

You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
September 2018
March 2018
January 2018
December 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
November 2016
August 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
March 2015
February 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
February 2014
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995
December 1994
November 1994
October 1994
September 1994
August 1994
July 1994
June 1994
May 1994
April 1994
March 1994
February 1994
January 1994
December 1993
November 1993
October 1993
September 1993
August 1993
July 1993
June 1993
May 1993
April 1993
March 1993
February 1993
January 1993
December 1992
November 1992
October 1992
September 1992
August 1992
July 1992
June 1992
May 1992
April 1992
March 1992
February 1992
January 1992
December 1991
November 1991
October 1991
September 1991
August 1991
July 1991
June 1991
May 1991

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager