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OLD-IRISH-L  January 2012

OLD-IRISH-L January 2012

Subject:

Re: Nessan and Ailbe - help!

From:

Catherine Swift <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:10:52 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

This is Ailbe bishop of Emly in Munster ? Quite clear in the Salamenticensis life which is where the verse turns up. To be honest - I don't really pay much attention to saintly dates - the record in the annals is so erratic and the determination to shove everybody into the 5th/6th C seems to me to be a later phenomenon. What do you think?  One of the fascinating things about being in an institution with a strong theology department is that you learn that official Catholicism has some very concrete (and blood early!) dates for Irish saints - I drive them all mad by piping up with queries over lunch. Its a question of the distance from the actual historical sources I think.

Where do you stand on the Ó Riain argument that one name generally means one saint and wandering cults rather than multiple saints ? I have difficulties with it I have to confess - its like saying all Michaels are inevitable psychopumps. (I love that word!) Of course, I work with 6 Catherines and 9 Marys so that may be fueling my scepticism. 
Cheers, 
Cathy     
________________________________________
From: Old-Irish-L [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Janet Crawford [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 13 January 2012 23:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OLD-IRISH-L] Nessan and Ailbe - help!

Hi Cathy, One should also be sure which Ailbe one is talking about and
that can get tricky. I am sorry I didn't look up Nessan's dates.
Bishop Ibar was the first Ailbe, and his son was the St. Ailbe of Emly
we normally would be talking about. Bp. Ibar/Ailbe of Beggery Island
was the one that fought with St. Patrick. The first 2 Ailbe's then
were flourishing at the time of Patrick in Munster. There were other
Ailbe's after that but I haven't tracked them so I don't know how many
more.

Janet

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Catherine Swift
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thanks David - Nessan is clearly being indicated in the Latin story as Ailbe's subordinate - a relationship which parallels the authority of the kingship of Cashel over the Ui Fidgeinte (as witnessed in texts like Cert ríg Caisil and Lebor na Cert). This verse - with its various imperatives and with the implication in your translation that Nessan has taken offerings which should be offered be up to ??? Ailbe ??? (identified throughout Irish sources as bishop while Nessan is a mere deacon) seems to mirror this. Thanks a million,   happy new term!
> Cathy
> ________________________________________
> From: Old-Irish-L [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of David Stifter [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 13 January 2012 10:16
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [OLD-IRISH-L] Nessan and Ailbe - help!
>
> On 12 Jan 2012 at 22:06, Dennis King wrote:
>
>> > Danae Dee nis frithchoirthi  selba forru niscorthi
>> > attoberthar na gabae sech nit muide nud chele
>> >
>> I assume that we're looking at the same ·coirthi (= ·corthae, etc.) in
>> both finite verbs, a 3rd sg. passive past subjunctive.  The 3rd pl.
>> infixed pronoun "-s-" (= them) is attached to both following the
>> negative particle.
>
> If this were OIr., no infixed pronoun should be present in a 3pl.
> Taking into account that the final vowel may stand for mere schwa,
> the forn could rather be 2nd sg. past subj. "you should not reject
> them", with a resumptive pronoun referring to the noun that
> immediately precedes the verb.
>
>> The verb "attoberthar" looks like the 3rd sg. passive present
>> subjunctive of "as·beir" with an infixed 3rd pl. pronoun -ta-, thus
>> something like "one ought to say them".  Perhaps, with reference to
>> the gifts, "one ought to acknowledge them".
>
> I rather think of "ad·opair" (to offer, sacrifice)..
> Or could it be a very odd spelling for "a ndo·berthar" = "that which
> is given (i.e. to you)"
>
>> The following "na gabae" could be the 2nd sg. present subjunctive of
>> "gaibid" preceded by the negative particle "ná", which normally goes
>> with the imperative, not the jussive subjunctive... but what the
>> heck?  Anyway, possibly "you should not take".
>
> Or "na" could stand for "no·": "it ought to be offered up (that
> which) you may take/get"
>
>> sech = other than, more than, beyond, rather than
>>
>> I'm going to skip "nit muide" since I don't recognize "muide".
>
> There is a noun "muide" "vessel", but that doesn't fit. I was
> wondering if it could be a comparative + "de", i.e. "mó(i)te" in
> normal spelling.
>
>> The final "nud chele" might be the negative leniting relative particle
>> "nad" with "cele", the 2nd sg. present subjunctive of "ce(i)lid =
>> conceals", perhaps "that you ought not conceal".
>
> Or again "no·" with an expletive neuter infixed pronoun which can
> work as a kind of relative marker in MIr.
>
> sech nit muide nud chele = "beyond (= in addition to) which, you are
> not the greater from what you conceal".
>
> David
>
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