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Subject: Re: 'Samhoin so' 35 & 36
From: Liz Gabay <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:11:29 +0100
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lenore fischer wrote:

>35. Ōn laithe sin a nGlend Gercc
>
>nī raibhe ag rīg dar derg cnedh
>
>muinnter mar muintir mo rīg 
>
>Taidg ūi Cheallaigh re snīomh slegh.
>
>muinntear* – household, family, followers,
>
>múinteoir- teacher

Hi Lenore,
       I think 'muinnter' and 'muintir' are two forms of the same word, 'muinnter' 
being a nominative form (subject of 'ní raibhe') and 'muintir' being an 
accusative or dative form following the preposition 'mar'.   The word translates 
variously "community, household, family....followers, adherents, troops".  I see 
the phrase 'muinntir righ' at DIL 192.10.   Here it probably refers to the 
supporters of the king, his army. 

>Ōn laithe sin a nGlend Gercc
>From those days in Glenn Derg

  I read your explanation of how Loch Derg might have been called Loch Gerg 
in the past, but it looked very speculative to me and not convincing enough to 
change the placename in a translation.  

>nī raibhe ag rīg dar derg cnedh
>the king has not had as a red wound

    Similar to 'dar balbh sreabh' in a previous verse, the phrase 'rígh dar derg 
cnedh' looks like a relative phrase.  I would expect 'dar' to be a combination 
of 'do' or 'de' and the past relative of copula 'ar'.  I would expect 'derg' to be a 
past verb form.  An awkward literal translation might be 'a king of [those] 
whom reddened a wound'.
   The verb is 'dergaid' "(reddens, makes red (esp. of bloodshed))".

'dár' in the sense 'of everyone who (everything that)' is common in Modern 
Irish.  O'Donaill's dictionary has an entry "dár...(de+ ar)....gach pingin dár 
shaothraigh sé, every penny he earned.."

    Looking at 'dergaid' in DIL, I found our line quoted at D 37.36 and 
translated "any king that ever dealt a red wound".  
    I prefer "any king who ever reddened a wound" or "any king who ever 
bloodied a wound". 

>Taidg ūi Cheallaigh re snīomh slegh
>Tadg Ua Cellaigh, over a twisting spear.

're' is probably a form of 'fri' or 'la' here, as in previous verses of this poem.     
Use of the word 'sním' with weapons in Bardic verse is discussed at DIL S 
303.61.  The sense is "twisting or wrenching (perhaps twirling or brandishing) 
weapons, hence fighting, doing battle".  They quote our text but don't 
translate it.

  I suspect 're' translates 'by means of, through' here.  'Slegh' could be 
genitive plural.  So maybe --

From those days in Glenn Gerg
Any king who ever bloodied a wound
Has not had followers like the followers of my king 
Tadg Ua Cellaigh by brandishing of spears.

 Liz 

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