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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  August 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER August 2011

Subject:

Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Aug 2011 20:17:09 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (322 lines)

In other words, Nick, in this view, contra the conventional cognitivist one, languaging is about relatiing rather than information.

Roger

On 2011-08-02, at 8:14 PM, Roger Harnden wrote:

> Nick the reason it is 'languaging' and not 'language' is because Maturana refers to the interactions that human beings have embedded in their language and understandings, as languaging', and he distinguishes this form 'language' per se.
> 
> Roger 
> On 2011-08-02, at 8:00 PM, Nick Green wrote:
> 
>> Cool- good title but for "languaging" which I suppose is meant to evoke the adaptive character of language. Why not just the Language of Models?
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Harnden
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 6:36 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>> 
>> Nick it was called 'The languaging of models'. I'll try and track it down,
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> 
>>> No problems with any of that Roger. Do you have a web reference to your paper?
>>> 
>>> N.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Harnden
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 8:23 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>>> 
>>> Indeed, Nick, all my work was about envisaging VSM through the filters (the lenses) of Lp and/or biology of cognition.
>>> 
>>> Hence, I arrived in my early work in the early nineties (totally ignored), at the insight into how languaging works (an amalgam of Gordon and Humberto) as the play of symbolic tokens in the course of the recurrent interactions of consensual coordination of actions.
>>> 
>>> To repeat what I wrote very recently,Nick. Any particular word in any particular language, in order to BE a word IN a language, is a MODEL........... is a token that finds itself embedded in a series of associations and connotations with implications for a set of practices and an the context of a system of symbolism.
>>> 
>>> That is what both Humberto and Gordon refer to as Culture. And the dynamics of such a  'culture' is quite distinct from the recurrent interactions of persons in their natural flow, a flow which entails them in their languaging as cultural beings.
>>> 
>>> Roger
>>> 
>>> On 2011-08-02, at 12:07 AM, Nick Green wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Re previous and why not think of the Stafford's Metalanguage stack as defining VSM and its autonomous parts and Pask's Lp or Protolanguage as generative or producing of it. Really top down or bottom up. Pask's spins provide Stafford's variety.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Harnden
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 8:57 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>>>> 
>>>> Nick - I really find it difficult to envisage  'mapping' VSM across to CT. Similarly, it is (I believe) impossible to do such a mapping between biology of cognition and VSM. I believe it IS possible to map across biology of cognition to CT.
>>>> 
>>>> To repeat what I frequently (and no doubt boringly) say, the VSM was envisaged in the context of social organisation, though inspired by insights into other domains of reality and contemporary discourses.
>>>> 
>>>> That is why for second order cybernetics, Stafford's work was always uncomfortable and an anomaly. They started with the organic entity (the individual) and thence the set of such entities (as did Gordon, I believe). Stafford never focused in his professional work on any such thing as the individual (as in organism or human individual).
>>>> 
>>>> Much confusion was caused by the publication of the volume of papers edited by myself and Raul which included, among other things, the example of a bee colony. And, Nick, I do sometimes believe that you yourself situate Gordon and Stafford closer than they actually are.
>>>> 
>>>> Stafford was considering how social organisations work in the social domain. He was considering how groups of people in their roles coexist through their interactions in carrying out conjoint social activities.
>>>> 
>>>> I think when we lose sight of this it is at our peril.
>>>> 
>>>> So to get back to the original (Frank) query..............the VSM of the VSM. I think the danger (or the delight) is that one ends up in a similar position to that which you inhabit, Nick (no criticism here), in your insight that an entity (say a brick) contains a 'model of itself'. I can see your logical consistency (sort of), but for me it remains the medieval intellectual entrapment of discussing how many angels may dance on the point of a needle.
>>>> 
>>>> Roger
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2011-08-01, at 8:35 PM, Nick Green wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> First is fine : but check a definition
>>>>> Adj.    1.    proto - indicating the first or earliest or original; "`proto' is a combining form in a word like `protolanguage' that refers to the hypothetical ancestor of another language or group of languages"
>>>>> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proto
>>>>> 
>>>>> As in Lp Pask's protolanguage (Ap, D, Con, Inter etc) Is that not beautiful?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Relief is at hand. All systems produce products. Get used to it. No whingeing allowed. We have a theory of process here and we are going to enjoy it by proclaiming product rather than mere output. It is odd it is odd but I nearly got lynched saying to a Whiteheadian friend that "Process and Reality" could be titled "Product and Reality" without changing the meaning. Pask actually got a prize for saying "All products are produced by processes and all processes produce products" (His process/product duality principle.) All this unconscious pretentiousness some of us have just blown away.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Refs for SO Pask "The cybernetics of evolutionary processes and self organizing systems" 3rd Namur Congress 1961. Not on line as far as I know.
>>>>> 
>>>>> and Ashby's notebooks. OK I may be undone here. Ashby certainly wrote "The Principles of Self Organizing Systems" using his usual approach, its in the Conant's "Mechanisms of Intelligence" collection and I recall some interesting remarks in Asby's notebooks but they appear unindexed very odd and he the inventor of the phrase self organization
>>>>> http://www.rossashby.info/index.html
>>>>> Pask holds you need a consensus (he calls it a colloquy) to agree that an act of self organization has occurred.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: John Waters
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 6:45 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 01/08/11 17:33, Nick Green wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Frank. Aren't you chasing meta VSM? So the books, papers and
>>>>>> our interactions are meta as John W says.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With my "ALL systems have internal models" I suppose I'm pursuing
>>>>> proto-VSM -( look it up if in doubt terms used conventionally)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm not at all sure where to look that up and how to identify the
>>>>> convention necessary to disambiguate it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To me that just looks like "first VSM".  There may well be an
>>>>> established convention to clarify this usage but it seems like
>>>>> shibboleth.  (That's not a complaint, just an observation. I don't blame
>>>>> others for my own ignorance.)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> But you also hint ("everything is in flux") at this problem of
>>>>>> Identity which made the early cybs Ashby and Pask leery of the
>>>>>> Self Organization concept, because if a thing self organises it
>>>>>> must change its identity
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hmmmm ... That has to depend on what one means by "identity".  Almost
>>>>> everything I can experience directly, even if remotely, seems to change
>>>>> - but as long as it does so within certain definable limits (i.e. such
>>>>> that the relationship between essential variables of my model remain
>>>>> distinguishable) then I may choose to assign it an identify continuously
>>>>> over time (and generally choose to do so). Whatever it is that I have
>>>>> chose to assign this identity to (and it has to be something that has
>>>>> sufficient stability and distinction to enable me to do so) may change
>>>>> to a form that would later prevent me from identifying it were I to
>>>>> observe it only at widely separated intervals, but as long as I can
>>>>> observe it with sufficient frequency to identify transitions then I can
>>>>> also choose to assign a continuing identity to that "system". We do not
>>>>> lose our identity as we grow older.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> (I can dig out refs if anybody is interested).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes please.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Clearly Stafford and Gordon resolved their doubts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John Waters says a v system must maintain its identity over time
>>>>>> and perturbation- but is this necessarily so? Can an enterprise
>>>>>> not change its products and still be that enterprise ie keep its
>>>>>> identity.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course. I took this to be a shared assumption.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Philosophically we must say no. Systems can only be known by their
>>>>>> products.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't understand what you man by "products" in this context.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would assume that any system comprises a set of variables, the
>>>>> relationships between those variables, the properties of those
>>>>> variables, etc., sufficiently rich to enable identification, distinction
>>>>> and modelling (of that system).  (I've probably expressed that very
>>>>> badly. I'm not used to trying to tease apart the self-referential and
>>>>> have never been comfortable with the insistence on distinction between
>>>>> reductionist and self-referential.)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Still we can self organise and produce the same products but more
>>>>>> efficiently or some such and we definitely keep our identity.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as I can see, the only thing we're obviously disagreeing about is
>>>>> whether we disagree. My brain hurts.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is an interesting question or not- so it
>>>>>> probably is interesting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think it probably is. Can we agree to agree about that?
>>>>> 
>>>>> John (:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> N.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Frank Wood
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:06 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I made a mistake in my last post on this subject.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I meant to say:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Has anyone done a Viable Systems Model of the Viable Systems Model?
>>>>>> In other words how do we know if the VSM is as effective as before
>>>>>> considering everything is in flux?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Indeed is it possible to do a VSM on the VSM?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Strange questions I know but that's how my brain cell works."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I had "virtual' on the brain cos of another discussion!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Frank Wood
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>> 
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>> 
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>> 
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>> 
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>> 
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>> 
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
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>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>> 
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>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> 
>> 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> 
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>> 
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> 
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> 
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>> 
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> 
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

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