LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  August 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER August 2011

Subject:

Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)

From:

Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:07:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (267 lines)

Re previous and why not think of the Stafford's Metalanguage stack as 
defining VSM and its autonomous parts and Pask's Lp or Protolanguage as 
generative or producing of it. Really top down or bottom up. Pask's spins 
provide Stafford's variety.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Roger Harnden
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 8:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)

Nick - I really find it difficult to envisage  'mapping' VSM across to CT. 
Similarly, it is (I believe) impossible to do such a mapping between biology 
of cognition and VSM. I believe it IS possible to map across biology of 
cognition to CT.

To repeat what I frequently (and no doubt boringly) say, the VSM was 
envisaged in the context of social organisation, though inspired by insights 
into other domains of reality and contemporary discourses.

That is why for second order cybernetics, Stafford's work was always 
uncomfortable and an anomaly. They started with the organic entity (the 
individual) and thence the set of such entities (as did Gordon, I believe). 
Stafford never focused in his professional work on any such thing as the 
individual (as in organism or human individual).

Much confusion was caused by the publication of the volume of papers edited 
by myself and Raul which included, among other things, the example of a bee 
colony. And, Nick, I do sometimes believe that you yourself situate Gordon 
and Stafford closer than they actually are.

Stafford was considering how social organisations work in the social domain. 
He was considering how groups of people in their roles coexist through their 
interactions in carrying out conjoint social activities.

I think when we lose sight of this it is at our peril.

So to get back to the original (Frank) query..............the VSM of the 
VSM. I think the danger (or the delight) is that one ends up in a similar 
position to that which you inhabit, Nick (no criticism here), in your 
insight that an entity (say a brick) contains a 'model of itself'. I can see 
your logical consistency (sort of), but for me it remains the medieval 
intellectual entrapment of discussing how many angels may dance on the point 
of a needle.

Roger


On 2011-08-01, at 8:35 PM, Nick Green wrote:

> First is fine : but check a definition
> Adj.    1.    proto - indicating the first or earliest or original; 
> "`proto' is a combining form in a word like `protolanguage' that refers to 
> the hypothetical ancestor of another language or group of languages"
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proto
>
> As in Lp Pask's protolanguage (Ap, D, Con, Inter etc) Is that not 
> beautiful?
>
> Relief is at hand. All systems produce products. Get used to it. No 
> whingeing allowed. We have a theory of process here and we are going to 
> enjoy it by proclaiming product rather than mere output. It is odd it is 
> odd but I nearly got lynched saying to a Whiteheadian friend that "Process 
> and Reality" could be titled "Product and Reality" without changing the 
> meaning. Pask actually got a prize for saying "All products are produced 
> by processes and all processes produce products" (His process/product 
> duality principle.) All this unconscious pretentiousness some of us have 
> just blown away.
>
> Refs for SO Pask "The cybernetics of evolutionary processes and self 
> organizing systems" 3rd Namur Congress 1961. Not on line as far as I know.
>
> and Ashby's notebooks. OK I may be undone here. Ashby certainly wrote "The 
> Principles of Self Organizing Systems" using his usual approach, its in 
> the Conant's "Mechanisms of Intelligence" collection and I recall some 
> interesting remarks in Asby's notebooks but they appear unindexed very odd 
> and he the inventor of the phrase self organization
> http://www.rossashby.info/index.html
> Pask holds you need a consensus (he calls it a colloquy) to agree that an 
> act of self organization has occurred.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: John Waters
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 6:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>
> On 01/08/11 17:33, Nick Green wrote:
>
>> Frank. Aren't you chasing meta VSM? So the books, papers and
>> our interactions are meta as John W says.
>>
>> With my "ALL systems have internal models" I suppose I'm pursuing
> proto-VSM -( look it up if in doubt terms used conventionally)
>
> I'm not at all sure where to look that up and how to identify the
> convention necessary to disambiguate it.
>
> To me that just looks like "first VSM".  There may well be an
> established convention to clarify this usage but it seems like
> shibboleth.  (That's not a complaint, just an observation. I don't blame
> others for my own ignorance.)
>
>> But you also hint ("everything is in flux") at this problem of
>> Identity which made the early cybs Ashby and Pask leery of the
>> Self Organization concept, because if a thing self organises it
>> must change its identity
>
> Hmmmm ... That has to depend on what one means by "identity".  Almost
> everything I can experience directly, even if remotely, seems to change
> - but as long as it does so within certain definable limits (i.e. such
> that the relationship between essential variables of my model remain
> distinguishable) then I may choose to assign it an identify continuously
> over time (and generally choose to do so). Whatever it is that I have
> chose to assign this identity to (and it has to be something that has
> sufficient stability and distinction to enable me to do so) may change
> to a form that would later prevent me from identifying it were I to
> observe it only at widely separated intervals, but as long as I can
> observe it with sufficient frequency to identify transitions then I can
> also choose to assign a continuing identity to that "system". We do not
> lose our identity as we grow older.
>
>> (I can dig out refs if anybody is interested).
>
> Yes please.
>
>> Clearly Stafford and Gordon resolved their doubts.
>>
>> John Waters says a v system must maintain its identity over time
>> and perturbation- but is this necessarily so? Can an enterprise
>> not change its products and still be that enterprise ie keep its
>> identity.
>
> Of course. I took this to be a shared assumption.
>
>> Philosophically we must say no. Systems can only be known by their
>> products.
>
> I don't understand what you man by "products" in this context.
>
> I would assume that any system comprises a set of variables, the
> relationships between those variables, the properties of those
> variables, etc., sufficiently rich to enable identification, distinction
> and modelling (of that system).  (I've probably expressed that very
> badly. I'm not used to trying to tease apart the self-referential and
> have never been comfortable with the insistence on distinction between
> reductionist and self-referential.)
>
>> Still we can self organise and produce the same products but more
>> efficiently or some such and we definitely keep our identity.
>
> As far as I can see, the only thing we're obviously disagreeing about is
> whether we disagree. My brain hurts.
>
>> I'm not sure if this is an interesting question or not- so it
>> probably is interesting.
>
> I think it probably is. Can we agree to agree about that?
>
> John (:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Best
>>
>> N.
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Frank Wood
>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:06 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: A Question about VSM (Corrected)
>>
>> I made a mistake in my last post on this subject.
>>
>> I meant to say:
>>
>> "Has anyone done a Viable Systems Model of the Viable Systems Model?
>> In other words how do we know if the VSM is as effective as before
>> considering everything is in flux?
>>
>> Indeed is it possible to do a VSM on the VSM?
>>
>> Strange questions I know but that's how my brain cell works."
>>
>> I had "virtual' on the brain cos of another discussion!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank Wood
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager