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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  July 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER July 2011

Subject:

Re: Syntegration: echo, reverberation, resonance, coherence (was: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace)

From:

Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:46:28 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (549 lines)

This is the cohesion of system 2 applied to matter. I’d say a pair of 
resonant complex waves (or complex spins, represent as 2 vectors of sine 
terms, perhaps) which attract (have the necessary relative Pi phase shift) 
defines matter. The more nearly the pair of waves are the same the lower the 
temperature or rate of interaction the less productive. That applies to both 
M and P individuals, So the defining pair for a P individual would be less 
similar and less coherent and weaker. Both the M and the P must be coherent 
to be stable. One can imagine the internal model P I changing more than the 
medium or M Individual. In fact there is a hierarchy of MI coherences of 
different strengths which get weaker as the scale increases (from Planck 
scale say to a mineral specimen then up through life and societies etc. Not 
sure I can say much more if I’m to avoid wishful thinking


BTW Like Malik’s remarks about mistrusting long term forecasting. But 
forecasting a bad days production if the workers don’t turn up in the 
morning is hardly seems like forecasting but it is- short term forecasting. 
In some cases productivity can go up, Wasn’t there a doctors strike and it 
was noticed afterwards the death rate had decreased!


and BTW there’s a supplement on totalitarianism in the NHS in Private Eye 
this week: how they persecute whistle blowers who dare to send algedonic 
signals! After all pain suppression is their business...


Best

N.

From: Joseph Truss
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 6:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Syntegration: echo, reverberation, resonance, coherence (was: 
All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace)

Say more please, Nick. Complex re variety, re numbers, re mathematics, re 
Pask… etc.


Joe

Joseph Truss
Team Syntegrity International AG
Metaphorum Group



From: Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 1:33:34 PM
Subject: Re: Syntegration: echo, reverberation, resonance, coherence (was: 
All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace)


Me too. Albeit a complex resonance.
N.

From: M.J.R. van de Wijnckel
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 12:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Syntegration: echo, reverberation, resonance, coherence (was: 
All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace)

Joe,

I find your specific usage in a Syntegration context very useful.

And I also think that Pask’s work (CT/IA) is really complementary here.
That has stayed with me since the CI Conference at least…


Mike.

Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Joseph Truss
Verzonden: dinsdag 5 juli 2011 6:07
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Stefan, Mike,

To me, resonance is an aspect of coherence. But we could arbitrarily decide 
that the opposite is so by agreement (ie that coherence is an aspect of 
resonance), however the exercise of recursing these similar but distinct 
terms tells me that they convey richer meaning if they are not made 
equivalent. Correlation seems to tie the concepts together.  Can something 
display resonance and not be coherent, and can something be coherent
without displaying resonance?

I am not just playing with your words, as I have been formulating distinct 
definitions for the terms 'echo', 'reverberation', and 'resonance' as it 
applies to Team Syntegrity. Very briefly an echo is a simple repeat of a 
concept, seeking clarification or expressing comprehension, either from a 
participant or facilitator; reverberation is well known in Syntegration 
terms as the effect of a concept that has been indirectly transferred, ie 
transduced through another central nervous system; and I am positing that 
resonance is the coherence that exists among the twelve topics as displayed 
in the final statements of all nodes at the end of a full iteration. I am 
not seeking to change or challenge the technical and other existing meanings 
of these terms, but to define specific usage in a Syntegration context.

Stefan, I have enjoyed your last two mails here particularly. :)

Best,

Joe


Joseph Truss
Team Syntegrity International AG
Metaphorum Group



From: Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, June 3, 2011 6:22:36 PM
Subject: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Well if you take wiki's definition for both none, but then if you take 
account of the assumption for popular usage well.........

I would agree with the wiki definition of coherence being correlation 
between waves and that resonance performs a similar function I suppose it is 
the attention to the degree of coupling that I get offended by and the 
common use of correlation in statistics.


S

On 3 Jun 2011, at 20:24, M.J.R. van de Wijnckel wrote:

> No problem here for me,
>
> Can you explain your difference between coherence and resonance for me?
>
>
> Mike.
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Stefan Wasilewski
> Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juni 2011 20:33
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
>
> Mike
>
> Coherence for me doesn't work, resonance does. Following from Nick's 
> recent
> chat the effect of resonance is more profound, it allows for positive and
> negative feedback as well as feedforward.
>
> Hard carapaces for me are the boundaries systems set in order to protect
> integrity of process and achieve continuity thereby. Everything is dynamic
> but seemingly 'GOD' gave us individual choice so what does that mean?
> Loneliness for one thing but collectively not. Predictability if diversity
> is good but anarchy if a collective cause is dominant. The subtlety of
> control is something not being articulated at the moment and this is where
> my mind is.........
>
> S
>
>
> On 3 Jun 2011, at 12:20, M.J.R. van de Wijnckel wrote:
>
>> Stefan,
>>
>> I think instead of balance we're working with COHERENCE.
>> A coherent concept produces a hard carapace and that kind of dynamic
>> stability and individuality, viability and identity (like our skins, or
>> Nick's rocks and tables! :))
>>
>> It is us who separate light and dark.
>> (that makes Genesis in the Bible quite self referential, doesn't it?)
>>
>> But Stefan, what "other" plan bigger than us?
>>
>>
>> Mike.
>>
>>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Stefan Wasilewski
>> Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juni 2011 10:21
>> Aan: [log in to unmask]
>> Onderwerp: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
>>
>> As I ran through the heath this morning it occurred to me that we emerge
> in
>> a duality of light and dark (running at 6:30) and build our models with a
>> sense/need for consistency. Balance is not the right word if it is taken
> as
>> static status quo but as a dynamic within acceptable bounds. For then we
> can
>> safely move within our own ontologies without excessive noise basically
>> making us 'give up' trying to make sense of the world.
>>
>> As children we have no sense of this 'other' plan bigger than us, we just
>> plough on getting as much data to survive until strategy for such can be
>> rationalised at some level.
>>
>> ...................
>>
>>
>> s
>>
>> On 3 Jun 2011, at 09:06, M.J.R. van de Wijnckel wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> I appreciate your 3rd order thought experiment. :)
>>> For me, you're perfectly using Ockam's Razor to demonstrate what it 
>>> means
>> to
>>> compute a stable reality...
>>>
>>> Because you must be floating next to that lump of matter to call it like
>>> that!?
>>> It's you "dancing in floating space" that actively brings forth YOUR
>> reality
>>> with lumps of matter, 3rd order cybernetics, Metaphorum, MBA Talk etc.
>>>
>>> I trust you can see that also. :)
>>> It's how I look at my day-to-day affairs as good as I can...
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike.
>>>
>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>>> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Frank Wood
>>> Verzonden: donderdag 2 juni 2011 18:33
>>> Aan: [log in to unmask]
>>> Onderwerp: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I wonder what would happen to balance in conditions of near zero
>>> gravity and conditions where gravity is very strong and if this was
>>> all in a vacuum? Daft question I suppose but that's how what
>>> laughingly called my "mind" works!
>>>
>>> Would it be the case that in those conditions there would be no
>>> feedback loops? I'm talking in this case of a lump of inanimate matter
>>> but even then would the nano motions of atoms have an effect and
>>> imbalance an object in the conditions given above? Hmm well only
>>> thinking aloud!
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> On 2 Jun 2011, at 16:53, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that is what I said earlier one; depends upon what level of
>>>> recursion you are looking at. Example The body inherently leans
>>>> forward and is perpetually falling over but through negative and
>>>> positive feedback at a higher level we believe we are walking
>>>> upright until stop, but even then the 'balancing act' continues
>>>> until we are horizontal and on our back/front.
>>>>
>>>> You just took exception to the program is all and why not?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2 Jun 2011, at 16:07, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I accept ( and teach ) that most systems exist in far from
>>>>> equilibrium conditions, are non-linear and tend towards Chaotic
>>>>> behaviour.  No Problem here
>>>>> My problem is what are my negative feedback loops doing.  Bt
>>>>> definition they are balancing, controlling loops but to what do
>>>>> they balance if there is no balance there?
>>>>> I would like to think that there is an underlying balance in an
>>>>> ecosystem.  It might never come into being but it is there or at
>>>>> least the potential to balance is there
>>>>> Ot perhaps I could rephrase as at a high level of recursion there
>>>>> is a balance ( salinity of the se, composition of the atmosphere)
>>>>> but at lover levels  i.e.under  local conditions, this balance may
>>>>> or may not be present
>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [[log in to unmask]
>>>>> ] on behalf of Stefan Wasilewski [[log in to unmask]]
>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2011 14:56
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
>>>>>
>>>>> and why should you? it's their problem not yours, the p-p model
>>>>> works well in confined spaces and all you have to do is increase
>>>>> the parameter space.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Jun 2011, at 14:30, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>> The problem is that for many years I have been teaching ecological
>>>>>> models such as predator -prey etc with lovely feedback loops and
>>>>>> limit cycles etc.  It is a jolt to learn that they are no longer
>>>>>> believed
>>>>>> To me, the abandonment of  self organising ecosystem is extremely
>>>>>> difficult as it is engrained in my head!!!!!
>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> ] on behalf of Roger Harnden [[log in to unmask]]
>>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2011 13:57
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alfredo - you are such a believer in science it just ain't true!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2011-06-02, at 1:53 PM, Alfredo Moscardini wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have taken the following from a paper by Robert O.Neill - a
>>>>>>> respected biologist.  I fond it mind blowing.
>>>>>>> Do negative feedback loops exist? and if so what are they doing?
>>>>>>> I dont know where it leaves GAIA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The  ecosystem is not an a posteriori, empirical observation
>>>>>>> about nature. The ecosystem concept is a paradigm
>>>>>>> (sensu Kuhn 1962), an a priori intellectual structure, a specific
>>>>>>> way of looking at nature. The paradigm emphasizes and focuses on
>>>>>>> some properties of nature,
>>>>>>> while ignoring and de-emphasizing others. After a half century of
>>>>>>> application, the paradigm is showing some rust. Limitations in
>>>>>>> the concept are becoming more
>>>>>>> apparent and leading to a vigorous backlash toward ecosystem
>>>>>>> concepts in particular, and ecology in general
>>>>>>> Concepts like stability and ecosystem are ambiguous and defined
>>>>>>> in contradictory ways. In fact there is no such thing as an
>>>>>>> integrated, equilibrial,
>>>>>>> homeostatic ecosystem: The classical paradigm in ecology, with
>>>>>>> its emphasis on the stable state, its suggestion of natural
>>>>>>> systems as closed
>>>>>>> and self-regulating, and its resonance with the nonscientific
>>>>>>> idea of balance of nature, can no longer serve as an adequate
>>>>>>> foundation for conservation.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more 
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative 
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList 
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative 
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList 
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative 
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList 
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more 
information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative 
Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList 
Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

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For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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