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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  July 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER July 2011

Subject:

A question about VSM

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:40:46 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (42 lines)

> Hey, John - don't give up......your comment was on the ball.
> 
> But in a way your comment applies to the consensual use of ANY model (which is not a bad thing, nor a good thing, but is the case).
> 
> Indeed, I sometimes think that our languaging and languaging interactions are all to do with us using models (formal and informal and all shapes and sizes in-between). In other words, once you find yourself in a given language (or organised system of symbols of any sort - such as mathematics), you find yourself willy nilly arranging symbols (or words) AS MODELS in the context of other symbols or words. So - my understanding of 'floral' or 'red', or 'love' or (indeed) 'language' is as a subset of a set of tokens which are used through recurrent interactions of persons in their consensual coordinations of actions.
> 
> Hence Wittgenstein's arriving at the notion of 'language games'. It is the 'rules' of the particular 'game' (according to Wittgenstein) that determine the flow of our interactions with ourself and others in a particular cultural context.
> 
> So I interpreted your comments as suggesting it is useful to consider VSM as expressing a term in a particular context (systems, cybernetics, variety, organisation etc etc), and considering the sort of interactions that might nurture for the individuals understanding it.
> 
> I realise, John, that the above is unlikely to be your own understanding (☺☺), but it is my 'hearing'. And (for me - I realise this is not the understanding of most others, say, in respect of VSM), it is this consensual coordination of interactions between human individuals (in Luc's sense) that determines whether or not, or how, this particular model impacts on recurrence of interactions
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
> On 2011-07-31, at 2:30 PM, John Waters wrote:
> 
>> On 31/07/11 14:01, Boris G Freesman, Q.C. wrote:
>> 
>>> A model is a model; nothing more, nothing less.
>> 
>> It's not obvious to me where anyone has suggested otherwise.  If I
>> appear to have done so I can only apologize for the woolliness of my
>> language ... but I believe I did that earlier.
>> 
>> I was just prodding idly to see what might emerge. Perhaps something
>> more illuminating still might, but I'm going back into lurk mode where I
>> generally learn far more.  :\
>> 
>> John (:
> 

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