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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  June 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER June 2011

Subject:

Re: Last dose: All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Jun 2011 22:49:37 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

Yes, interesting query, Alex. I have posted a cpuple of times on the programme. Did they make any sense to you?

Roger

On 2011-06-07, at 10:43 PM, Nick Green wrote:

> Yes Alex but I have colleagues here who would like to participate in your enquiry too so I'm posting this to Metaphorum
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=ucd-staffordbeer&A=1
> 
> Quick overview of Self Organization in Cybernetics (mostly written by me so far).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization#Self-organization_in_cybernetics
> 
> Neither Ashby or Pask liked the appellation "Self Organization" but took it up. Pask ended up calling his Interactions of Actors Theory, which sprang from the notion of available bandwidth as an indicator of Self Organisation, a Process Theory. Many of us regard Stafford Beer's VSM as the proved and demonstrated paradigm of autonomous Self Organisation.
> 
> Best
> N.
> -----Original Message----- From: Alex Hough
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Last dose: All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace
> 
> Dear Nick,
> 
> I follow the CYBCOM list but am not an expert. I don't have permission
> to post. I hope you don't mind me posting to you out of the blue.
> 
> I am interested in exploring Adam Curtis's work, especially the
> occasions he touches on cybernetics. And I would like to seek the
> opinions of those within the cybernetics community. I am a new member
> of an organisation called SCiO [1], I joined after doing some work at
> Manchester Business School: I wanted to learn more about Stafford
> Beer.
> 
> I wonder if I could pick your brains on some of the stuff in Curtis's
> offering? To me he seems to have painted cybernetics as a sinister
> right wing project. It somehow does not fit with Stafford's Chilean
> work. But he does raised my curiosity when he talked about
> self-organising systems.
> 
> Alex Hough
> [1] http://scio.org.uk
> 
> 
> On 7 June 2011 21:48, Nick Green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Previous episodes have appeared on You Tube.
>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace&aq=f
>> 
>> Apologies to you for BBC policies.
>> 
>> Best
>> 
>> N.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: oliver
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:23 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Last dose: All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace
>> 
>> This kind of censorship, in newspeak is called
>> "saving copyright and intellectal property rights".
>> 
>> If this kind of "rights" will be forced more and more,
>> it is a good way to install censorship, but it will
>> get a better sounding name this way.
>> 
>> That's the Orwell'ian state, expanding behind the surface
>> of good intents.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 04:13:51PM -0400, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>>  Any explanation as to why the bbc iplayer will not work in my area? I
>>> get a banner message across the screen on that web site that informs me
>>> "Not
>>> available in your area". How disappointing!
>>> 
>>> Onward!
>>> 
>>> Stephen
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Nick Green
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:03 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Last dose: All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace
>>> 
>>> Everything from Teller on von Neumann to Dian Fossey and her love of
>>> gorillas. Our need for copper, tantalum and tin produced the Congo  wars
>>> aided by Armand Denis (yes he of 50s documentary film fame) and skull size
>>> measurements of the Tutsi and Hutu.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011x721/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_The_Monkey_in_the_Machine_and_the_Machine_in_the_Monkey/
>>> 
>>> Undoubtedly another fascinating program but the failure of computers to
>>> provide utopia (given the usually dreadful data quality)? So the usual
>>> swings from trivial to profound and some interesting reflections on the
>>> selfishness of genes and their altruism and all sort of punkified.
>>> 
>>> "Why no one believes you can change the world for the better any more" No
>>> one? Don't aspire? Are they kidding?
>>> 
>>> Computers as Twitter (R)evolutionaries, educators,
>>> accountability/transparency machines seemed to escape the producers
>>> attention. At least we can in principle talk to other users in the world
>>> follow the money and keep accurate books, logs etc. . But model natural
>>> behaviour in serial/parallel machines? Yes that's tricky. But we continue
>>> to
>>> work at it.
>>> 
>>> I propose we estimate complexity by the number of interacting
>>> servomechanisms required to simulate it- that's the power of our method.
>>> Is
>>> there any (be it shifting or punctuated or both) dynamic equilibrium
>>> resistant to that approach? Each atom as a thermostat might be one
>>> starting
>>> point, each person as a servo for each drive: thirst, hunger etc. another.
>>> Ontogeny (nurture) is far more important than phylogeny these days and
>>> altruism as symbioses with nearest neighbours (thinking globally) not a
>>> licence to kill the genetically distant (as Price's biographer seemed to
>>> allow). Anyway computer controlled personal manufacturing is coming and it
>>> will save a lot more lives than this program.
>>> 
>>> Best
>>> N.
>>> 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>> 
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>> 
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>> 
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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