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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  January 2011

UCD-STAFFORDBEER January 2011

Subject:

Re: Any assistance on this?

From:

Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:27:52 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

Yes, Roger, but agreeing dunces which makes us agreeable dunces!

You do realise that this agreeing thing is not doing either of us any  
good to our street cred!

I'll keep quiet if you do. :-)

Frank

On 10 Jan 2011, at 10:59, Roger Harnden wrote:

> Well, I'm reluctant to admit this, Frank.......but I think I go  
> along with you again!
>
> My main problem is the 'exercise' itself......which I tool as a  
> query (my mistake). Actually, it turns out it was fabricated (with  
> the author's boundary conditions - sorry, Russell). I think it  
> stands as an example of what von Foerster called an 'illegitimate  
> question' (a question posed for which the questioner already knows  
> the answer).
>
> On the other hand, Frank, we are in the minority. Others accepted it  
> as a worthwhile exercise, and took the porous boundary conditions as  
> non-porous (the mark of the 'good' student!).
>
> I'm afraid, Frank, you and I are just dunces this time!
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> On 10 Jan 2011, at 00:54, Frank Wood wrote:
>
>> Sorry Russell,
>> I can't go for this nonsense about reductionism. I repeat - you  
>> cannot be responsible for other people's actions. You can only be  
>> responsible for your own actions.
>>
>> This case is not some sort of horrendous complex systems thingy,  
>> it's really quite simple and to call me reductionist because I  
>> state the obvious is laughable!
>>
>> D is responsible for his actions, B is responsible for her actions.  
>> From what I can gather his maneuver was a tricky one that required  
>> great concentration. If  his concentration is that easily broken  
>> then he should not be flying kites. I note that D also contends (in  
>> his view) that this may have happened without B's interference.
>>
>> What I find interesting is the usual over analytical over  
>> intellectual approach of (mercifully) some Cyberneticians so it's  
>> little wonder that these people have not got anywhere nor will get  
>> anywhere when they get so easily bogged down.
>>
>> BTW what do you think of my previous comment that maybe some of the  
>> hostility towards D on that forum may have been because they felt  
>> his reluctance to accept total responsibility made them all look  
>> irresponsible and stupid in the eyes of opponents of kite flyers on  
>> beaches?
>>
>> Also I can't see how stating that D is 100% responsible for his  
>> actions is a personal attack.
>>
>> I find it a little depressing that many Cyberneticists just don't  
>> get it, are appalling at communication (oh irony of ironies!) and  
>> just don't want to come down from their ivory towers.
>>
>> But as they say "c'est la vie", maybe it's a good thing if it keeps  
>> them off the streets!
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
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