LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  September 2010

UCD-STAFFORDBEER September 2010

Subject:

Re: For Nick re UHF (sub-ELF!)

From:

Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:52:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

Yes. All I can say now (let's return to this again some time) I'd like to  
avoid having a VSM of the earth, say, with atmosphere, ocean and land  
system ones. May have to do it that way (but still where's the 3*?) for  
some apps. I'll think more about this.

Best

N.
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:37:02 +0100, Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>  
wrote:

> Remember also that the system is a continuing process of components  
> along VSM lines but those components are also present at other levels of  
> recursion and hold multiple ontologies etc that are communicated  
> independent of the VSM structure; they are constantly comparing models  
> but operating in part in one that remains constant as its structure  
> allows. Everyone can hold a view of the identity of the pat-time  
> structure (say VSM) it's how well it's communicated (S5 S4 etc) that  
> relates to its abiding nature.
>
>
> On 26 Sep 2010, at 23:16, Nick Green wrote:
>
>> The five is easy taken as identity- its how things look while being  
>> maintained by all sorts of internal processes but describing  
>> distributed Sys 4 satisfactorily seems elusive to me. 3 seems ok (the  
>> homeostat as it works now) but 3* for the earth? I feel the shoe should  
>> fit- but it doesn't yet.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:04:49 +0100, Stefan Wasilewski  
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Essentially yes. I do not view any system in isolation but as a  
>>> dynamic with boundary conditions pertinent to the way the locality is  
>>> structured; hence VSM is a good well managed structure with a longer  
>>> than normal life span whilst others may have different models but  
>>> certain instabilities. Therefore any change in their environment, of  
>>> any kind, must be met with an internal interpretation and then  
>>> continued adaption to make the structure the same shape again. Make  
>>> sense? The Earth Moon example works for me as does your looking at  
>>> short wavelengths. I just review the Kolmogorov article and the  
>>> discussion on vortices reminded me of Javier's discussion. But back to  
>>> the issue......
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>> On 26 Sep 2010, at 22:55, Nick Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmm.So to continue the analogy: a change in the distance between the  
>>>> earth and the moon would produce a message (exception report? but ill  
>>>> defined capability threshold hmm) producing a change in the structure  
>>>> or private internal models of the moon and earth (and the sun etc)  
>>>> and showing up (the surface of the private model) as tidal effects.  
>>>> Now if we accept that the earth evolves (kind of mad if we don't)  
>>>> surely we can infer there has to be a system 4 process (a source of  
>>>> potential?- molten core? Sunlight? Gravity/momentum?) we can  
>>>> identify. I find it tricky but worth persisting with. These are not  
>>>> conclusions (from me) more invitations to speculate. Is that going  
>>>> the right way for you Stefan?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 1:30:37 +0100, Stefan Wasilewski  
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For me it exemplifies how we can approach the Cyber-Filter's link to  
>>>>> outside perturbations and assess performance under those conditions?
>>>>>
>>>>> OK?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 Sep 2010, at 19:24, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can someone tell me what on earth the below has to do with the  
>>>>>> discussion of
>>>>>> the works of Stafford Beer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:06:25 +0100, Nick Green
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll scrutinize. Tough going when plasma physics meets geophysics  
>>>>>>> in space.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Joe. I really need expert help here. It seems the Cluster  
>>>>>>> Mission
>>>>>>> has produced wide spectrum data but very low resolution (I have  
>>>>>>> found
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:   
>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -  
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -  
>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:   
>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -  
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -  
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> --
>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:   
>> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -  
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -  
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:   
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -  
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -  
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager