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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  September 2010

UCD-STAFFORDBEER September 2010

Subject:

Re: Harris: Science Can Answer Moral Questions (use of language)

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:24:30 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

Nick, they are not 'things out of a hat'. That's surely the whole  
point about language (incidentally, that you seem to want to dismiss).  
They are not some sort of a 'package' that you might produce....they  
are communications (ie processes) that you might or might not enter  
into..

Any 'products' come later...........


Best wishes,


Roger




On 25 Sep 2010, at 02:42, Nick Green wrote:

> Hi Roger
>
> I thought I'd replied to this a few hours ago but I seem to be  
> having finger trouble with Opera's emailer.
>
> What I said was I thought there was an inevitable emotional  
> (connotative?) content insofar as the surface meaning (denotative?)  
> is entailed i.e. there is some epistemology to produce it. Pask had  
> it that meaning was emotion i.e. produced an external action.
>
> My sympathies are with new comers to Pask- we all were once- luckily  
> I worked for him and he was always direct and plain in his  
> discussions of research and his current research problems. You might  
> not understand it immediately but then you'd be going home on the  
> train or whatever and have an Aha experience. I remember walking  
> down Camden High street and getting the analogy-dependence- 
> contradiction and later the innovation thing. That's all one object  
> by the way. Sometimes I feel like a conjurer producing these things  
> out of a hat but a lot of it is on the web at Cybsoc or in Wiki. I  
> did a poster a few years ago for a Cybsoc Conference
> http://cybsoc.org/analogy.htm
>
> Best
>
> N.
>
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:24:18 +0100, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask] 
> > wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> I said a little while ago that you had described Pask in as clear a  
>> way as I had even heard you do.
>>
>> You have now rather seriously regressed. Nick, You too often  
>> totally ignore the constraints of language as connotative, and  
>> appear to treat it as unambiguously denotative. Perhaps that's how  
>> you see it???
>>
>> Surely you see that for someone who has no knowledge of Gordon, the  
>> things you have said are not self-evident facts or truths??
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>> On 23 Sep 2010, at 18:33, Nick Green wrote:
>>
>>> Think further Trevor.
>>> Processes produce products. Perception is a process with inputs  
>>> and outputs thus products are produced from evident things via  
>>> interpretation in a private model. Clear now?
>>> I know the Pask approach is unfamiliar to many you but to say you  
>>> have no idea what I'm talking about is I hope untrue and just a  
>>> cop out. On the upside this is an opportunity to show other ways  
>>> (hopefully one day better and stricter) of doing things in  
>>> cybernetics -which I am pleased to do. Since VSM spends its life  
>>> monitoring evidence to produce action or products via models I'm a  
>>> bit surprised any of this poses any difficulty for you.
>>>
>>> So like Hitchens we can say "What can be asserted without evidence  
>>> can be dismissed". Surely you can now accept this?
>>>
>>> You may want to ask what we mean by "meaning"- So how about  
>>> defining "shared meaning" (the important case) as the production  
>>> of similar actions by participants after interpretation in their  
>>> private models.
>>>
>>> Pask's IA is a process theory like VSM but it is not restricted to  
>>> factories! Your misunderstanding of the word "product" is showing  
>>> perhaps. Cybernetics really is general purpose when treated  
>>> properly.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> N.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:31:29 +0100, Trevor E Hilder <[log in to unmask] 
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Nick,
>>>>
>>>> On 22 Sep 2010, at 18:36, Nick Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trevor,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your reflections on serial linguistic pathology are welcome but  
>>>>> no doubt you will recall that we in cybernetics, thanks to  
>>>>> Stafford, raise the metalanguage when we encounter  
>>>>> undecidability. We add variety, enlarge the context to  
>>>>> generalize the problem or as Pask had it add a new concept to  
>>>>> remove ambiguity. This has little bearing on your refusal to  
>>>>> allow that with no evidence no product can be produced as far as  
>>>>> I can see.
>>>>
>>>> [TEH] I thought we were talking about perceptual systems and the  
>>>> source of meaning of statements. What has that got to do with  
>>>> producing product? Are you discussing running some kind of  
>>>> factory here? I have no idea what you are talking about!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> -- 
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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