LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L Archives

CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L  August 2010

CELTIC-L August 2010

Subject:

Re: Important new La Tène object from Britain

From:

John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:37:46 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (180 lines)

Hi John,

An interesting lot of links -- I can see that the argument for 
St.Michael's Mount is not terribly strong, but on the other hand I have 
a hard time with the Isle of Wight being Ictis. There are a few reasons 
for my skepticism, first I have a problem with any claims that any power 
was in control of a large chunk of sea/ocean at this time. How on earth 
could that be possible? It's a statement I have seen applied to 
different situations.

My biggest problem with the Isle of Wight being Ictis is that it is way 
too far from the mine source. With valuable metals, a close mine source 
is essential for profit as it seems that these metals had a narrow range 
of values with any profit coming from the premiums that were acceptable 
and seen as transportation costs -- its not much different today, gravel 
cost are really mainly transportation costs in construction.

I did track down more details on one of the Mount Batten hoards from 
John Evan's _The Coins of the Ancient Britons_, 1864. He is talking 
about various Armorican issues (mostly Coriosolite are illustrated in 
that plate) and says that these types of coins found in Jersey were also 
found at Mount Batten. At this time, there were no exact tribal 
attributions and the Jersey hoards contained many different types of 
Armoricam coins from pretty well all of the Armorican tribes.

When he showed what other coins were in that Mount Batten hoard, it made 
me wonder about the tribal identity of who it was that was burying these 
Armorican hoards. Looking at Alet - Jersey - Hengistbury, we see (in the 
Le Catillon hoard) a few Durotriges coins amidst the Armorican. With 
that Mount Batten hoard, we have a few Dobunni coins among the Armorican.

I had originally thought that it was the Coriosolites who were trading 
and recycling these Armorican billon coins, but I'm thinking now that 
the Jersey hoard features reflect that area for more geographical 
reasons and that other hoard locations will reflect their specific areas 
in a similar way e.g. Durotriges coins added at Jersey and Dobunni coins 
added at Mount Batten.

Now I am leaning more to bringing back the Veneti as sole maritime 
traders in scrap metals with unclaimed hoards really reflecting the 
local areas traveled rather than reflecting who was doing the traveling. 
Late Veneti coins have a curious distribution that is focused at quite a 
distance from where you would expect to find them (Philip de Jersey, 
1994), and it is possible, I think, that these were issued for 
"mercenary" payments in the Gallic war, and their distribution area was 
thus the Veneti's main recruiting area.

About twenty years ago I had a discussion with Colin Haslegrove about 
the Le Catillon hoard. He thought it was buried sometime in the 3rd 
quarter of the 1st cent B.C. as it contained brooch types that do not 
exist in Augustan forts north of the Alps, whereas I claim that the 
hoard is at least a quarter century later and is associated with both 
the destruction of the port at Alet at about 10-15 A.D. and the shift 
away from any semblance of silver in Durotriges coins at the same time.

So I am placing that Mount Batten hoard as equally late (recycling 
operations that I now think (again) were operated by the Veneti in a 
number of regions).

This "orphans" the Paul (Penzance) hoard as its contents are way too 
early to be connected with the Jersey/Mount Batten hoard profiles. Stray 
finds and excavated examples of the Italian Celtic issues (Insubres, 
Cenomani, Veneti) in Armorica do not seem to exist and a cursory 
examination of the hoards that contain Coriosolite coins in Armorica and 
Jersey does not provide any more Italian issues.

What the Paul hoard was doing there is not easily explainable. I reject, 
outright, that these coins were payments in trade (unless they were 
treated as bullion). Trade would have to be commodity for commodity with 
full ships going back and forth -- otherwise there would have been no 
profit on the venture. They could have been "political tributes". They 
might not have come, directly, from the Italian tribes and could have 
been transmitted to England directly from Massilia instead.

About thirty years ago, Colin Orton was the curator of coins at the 
Nickle Arts Museum (NAM). He had a fully equipped numismatic lab 
complete with a scanning electron microscope (since looted by another 
department at the University of Calgary). He tested a hoard of silver 
Massilian coins and found that the silver was of Roman origin -- this 
study was never published. According to Trogus, the Massilians bailed 
out the Romans after Rome was captured (arranging for the ransom 
payment) and this silver might then be a later Roman repayment.

Most interesting to me at the moment are the roles that the Durotriges 
and Dobunni played in all of this. Coins of both tribes are found in 
recycling hoards in their respective areas, so I think it likely that 
they played a role in these operations. Traditionally, (although not 
emphasized since Fox), the Dobunni were responsible for quite a lot of 
the high status metalwork of the warrior class. The Durotriges, on the 
other hand, did not have much of this stuff and instead, were mainly 
interested in extracting silver from argentiferous west-country copper 
and in recycling metals through the cuppelation process.

The Dobunni, were likely "go-betweens" in the metal trade with west 
country copper and lead (both containing silver). Besides selling the 
silver, they could have retained the base byproducts in order for their 
craftsmen to have a constant supply of bronze etc.for their products.

They also occupied the upper reaches of the Thames and this was a major 
route -- perhaps for people rather than goods. Now it must remain to 
either establish or deny that the finial was made there by one of these 
visitors -- a craftsman catering to warriors seeking new adventures and 
opportunities after Italy.

Peter Northover remarks in "Materials issue in the Celtic Coinage" in 
BAR (British). 222, 1992,:

"The analysis of an example found in an excavated context at Maiden 
Castle further emphasizes this possibility. The composition is of a 
bronze with an important cobalt impurity, with Co>>Ni and with iron. 
arsenic and silver as the other significant impurities. This impurity 
pattern is highly characteristic metalworking in southern Britain in the 
La Tène Iron Age, and can almost certainly be associated with a copper 
source in south-west England. ..."

I have written to him for more details (what fun this all is!).

Cheers,

John



On 8/14/2010 10:16, Caer Australis wrote:
> Plenty of fun with Ictis. This business of trade, the level to which it had
> developed, the development of touta in the period, and the whole business of
> internal 'celtic' affairs at the time, that had formed its tendril
> connection to the Mediterranean, is a great place to be, and will occupy
> this bunny in the next period :)
>
> There's good work being conducted, and great speculation, and I very much
> like the 'ownership' of Ictis along the south coast.
>
> http://www.wight-screenpublishing.co.uk/nelsonseye/nelson_sacredsites/nelson_stcatherinestower2.html
> Diodorus' description of transportation of tin from Cornwall via Ictis to
> the coast of France has been a point of debate, but Island historian
> Davenport Adams thought the evidence pointed to the Isle of Wight being the
> isle of Ictis.
>
>
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0092.1983.tb00101.x/abstract
> Cunliffe's Mount Batten
>
> http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6464/Introduction.html
> Trade is another area where we owe a debt to archaeology. With some
> exceptions, ancient writers felt trade to be beneath them, and what literary
> evidence we have is largely imprecise and anecdotal. Archaeological finds,
> however, especially of pottery, enable us to reconstruct trade patterns.
>
> http://www.cismas.org.uk/docs/Mounts_Bay_Survey_Report.pdf
> First published 2009 by CISMAS Penzance Cornwall
> www.cismas.org.uk
>
> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-8YGplfW0V0J:www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-03272007-114932/unrestricted/etd.pdf+ictis+gaul+3rd+century+bc&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
> HAMMERSEN, LAUREN ALEXANDRA MICHELLE. The Control of Tin in
> Southwestern Britain from the First Century AD to the Late Third Century AD.
> A great review of the earlier period here.
> Gotta find where the .pdf has been placed!
>
> http://www.cornisharchaeology.org.uk/index_htm_files/Documents/CA25-4s2.pdf
> Knowledge of Dumnonia between c. 500 BC and 500 AD has increased
> considerably since 1962, with consequent new emphasis in research. This
> article is wrongly titled — it should really be called 'The Iron Age and
> Roman Periods in Mid- and West Cornwall'.
>
> cheers
>
> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.
>
>
>    


-- 
"Numismatics is the window through which I look out on the past."
Derek Fortrose Allen
1910-1975

You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
September 2018
March 2018
January 2018
December 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
November 2016
August 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
March 2015
February 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
February 2014
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995
December 1994
November 1994
October 1994
September 1994
August 1994
July 1994
June 1994
May 1994
April 1994
March 1994
February 1994
January 1994
December 1993
November 1993
October 1993
September 1993
August 1993
July 1993
June 1993
May 1993
April 1993
March 1993
February 1993
January 1993
December 1992
November 1992
October 1992
September 1992
August 1992
July 1992
June 1992
May 1992
April 1992
March 1992
February 1992
January 1992
December 1991
November 1991
October 1991
September 1991
August 1991
July 1991
June 1991
May 1991

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager