LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L Archives

CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L  August 2010

CELTIC-L August 2010

Subject:

Re: Important new La Tène object from Britain

From:

Caer Australis <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:48:17 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (205 lines)

Hi John

Tin being the vital ingredient in Bronze manufacture makes the Dumnonian
region a major focus, with export out of Wight (or wherever Ictis was) to
the continent bringing constant and important contact with the continent for
all of the south coast. The agricultural south and other useful goods will
have been in the precise environment conducive to the exchange of ideas,
contact with useful people, agreements for artisan visits, and the
development of relationships. North of the Thames would knock-on with the
desire for what the south had. Commodities would have driven the contact,
luxuries displaying the power.

Just getting my head around the circumstance in which the finial found itself.

cheers,
JB

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:41:01 -0600, John Hooker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hi John,
>
>Yes, Pytheas told of the British tin trade (reported by later authors). 
>I cannot see what impact that would have had with tribes far from 
>Cornwall. though. Roman trade might have been as early as the second 
>cent B.C., but I doubt there was any in the 3rd cent B.C. Massalia is a 
>possibility as this was a Phokaean colony dating to the 6th cent B.C., 
>but apart from tin, I don't know what would have attracted them to go 
>that far. Perhaps slaves?
>
>I think it is quite possible that the 3rd cent B.C. saw a lot of wealth 
>moving to Britain in the hands of those who fought in the Italian 
>campaigns. I actually identified a Campano-Tarentine didrachm for a 
>British detectorist, but it might even have been a fairly modern loss! 
>It dates to ca. 275-250 B.C. Another Tarentine didrachm of the commoner 
>types was found in the same bog in Denmark as that of the Gundestrup 
>Cauldron.
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
>
>On 8/10/2010 6:08, Caer Australis wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Probably on the same track, but the commodity trade must have been a real
>> deal at the period, and a wealth accumulator too. I'm thinking of the
>> enormous importance of tin, being so important in the bronze economy, and
>> the focus it brought upon Britain, and the tendrils across the continent
>> that so eminated. Ideas will have gone along with the metal and the booze.
>> As for magic, well the metallugist's green flames, the production of silver
>> out of lead ore - well! Imbubing the superbly crafted items destined for the
>> luxury/status with additional properties of 'success' will have gone
>> hand-in-hand.
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 08:52:41 -0600, John Hooker<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I'm not a great fan of the "trade theory" -- at least for "luxury" goods
>>> at that time. It was common later, though -- nearer to the time of the
>>> conquest when bi and even tri metallic currency was used and a "middle
>>> class" was starting to emerge. There are early examples of international
>>> trade in small objects, like the belt clasps that were traded across the
>>> Alps in the 5th cent B.C., but I think that "high status" metalwork was
>>> more or less "made to order" for the warrior class patrons. There is
>>> some legendary evidence of such smiths being quite powerful and
>>> originality of design being considered very important. However, more
>>> humble objects like the belt clasps, possibly a number of scabbard
>>> chapes and perhaps rather plain bracelets etc. could well have been
>>> traded far and wide --wherever you see the same designs in many places.
>>> Brooches, mostly were local trade as there was little need to go too far
>>> with them and probably little profit in doing so. I think that the
>>> finial and other items like the great shields etc. were made for local
>>> patrons -- you see hints of regional styles, although it is often rather
>>> difficult to track down an exact location of a workshop. I also think it
>>> likely that these designs were imbued with some sort of belief in the
>>> magic of the designs -- the story of Cú Chulainn's shield design seems
>>> to reveal such.
>>>
>>> Jope, as I said, thought there were too few imported examplars to
>>> explain the flowering of British Celtic art and believed that it was the
>>> makers rather than the objects that went there. That is why I would like
>>> to find out if the finial was indeed a "missing examplar" or a local
>>> further development of the Plastic/Disney style.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 8/7/2010 6:47, Caer Australis wrote:
>>>      
>>>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 11:09:02 -0600, John Hooker<[log in to unmask]>  
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>> The third century is also a time for the flowering of British Celtic art
>>>>> and E. M. Jope was of the opinion that it arrived there, not through
>>>>> trade but through visiting artisans. The period is roughly from the
>>>>> Witham shield to the Newnham Croft armlet. Very little is before that
>>>>> time-- mostly a run of early daggers, various brooches and the
>>>>> Cerrig-y-Drudion "crown".
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>> Ok, here's a simple thought experiment: ping me wherever needed.
>>>>
>>>> A flourish of art is likely to accompany a period of affluence. Cultural
>>>> development gets a chance in such an environment; this may include good
>>>> climate, food production in surplus, land ownership stability, stable
>>>> politics, lots of babies.
>>>>
>>>> A location in the south coast of Britain provides two avenues of trade -
>>>> inland and the continent.
>>>>
>>>> Developments on the continent in manufacturing techniques represent a shiny
>>>> prize to acquire.
>>>>
>>>> Surplus goods and political arrangements are useful trade-offs for
>>>> technology - Jope's visiting artisans, in this context, are in fact trade
>>>>        
>> goods.
>>    
>>>> Establishment of such arrangements leads to allegiance, alliance and
>>>>        
>> agreements.
>>    
>>>> Replication of such activity along the channel stimulates competitiveness.
>>>>
>>>> Merged common interests lead to formal leadership and channel-spanning
touta.
>>>>
>>>> This is consistent with the touta model, as per Raimund:
>>>>
>>>> The timing of the establishment of touta in the early half of the millenium
>>>> BC provided a cultural environment whereby efficiency and ultimately suplus
>>>> could be achieved. Going to the known distribution of touta names at
the end
>>>> of that millenium, the end result is attested.
>>>>
>>>> Caesar postulated in 54BC (Caesar, Bellum Gallium, 5,12): "the interior of
>>>> Britian is inhabited by people who claim, on the strength of an oral
>>>> tradition, to be aboriginal; the coast, by Belgic immigrants who came to
>>>> plunder and make war - nearly all of them retaining the names of the tribes
>>>> from which they originated - and later settled down to till the soil. The
>>>> population is exceedingly large, the ground being studded with homesteads,
>>>> closely resembling those of the Gauls, and the cattle very numerous. For
>>>> money they use either bronze, or gold coins, or iron ingots of fixed
weights"
>>>>
>>>> The 'plunder and make war' bit may be his own anticipation of what to do
>>>> next (he seemed to set up a few casus belli triggers to invade Britain, or
>>>> be a reasonably accurate interpretation of events (for a Roman), or just a
>>>> Roman's interpretation of what had happened as a natural consequence of
>>>> touta development.
>>>>
>>>> How does that sit?
>>>>
>>>> John B
>>>>
>>>> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at
>>>>        
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73,
>> selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the
>> unsubscription routine there.
>>    
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> "Numismatics is the window through which I look out on the past."
>>> Derek Fortrose Allen
>>> 1910-1975
>>>
>>> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at
>>>      
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73,
>> selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the
>> unsubscription routine there.
>>
>> You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73,
selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the
unsubscription routine there.
>>
>>
>>    
>
>
>-- 
>"Numismatics is the window through which I look out on the past."
>Derek Fortrose Allen
>1910-1975
>
>You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73,
selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the
unsubscription routine there.

You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
September 2018
March 2018
January 2018
December 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
November 2016
August 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
March 2015
February 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
February 2014
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995
December 1994
November 1994
October 1994
September 1994
August 1994
July 1994
June 1994
May 1994
April 1994
March 1994
February 1994
January 1994
December 1993
November 1993
October 1993
September 1993
August 1993
July 1993
June 1993
May 1993
April 1993
March 1993
February 1993
January 1993
December 1992
November 1992
October 1992
September 1992
August 1992
July 1992
June 1992
May 1992
April 1992
March 1992
February 1992
January 1992
December 1991
November 1991
October 1991
September 1991
August 1991
July 1991
June 1991
May 1991

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager