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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  March 2010

UCD-STAFFORDBEER March 2010

Subject:

Re: Best way to rob a bank is to own one

From:

Doug McDavid <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:33:59 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

Hi Roger --

In your point below you mention the relation between VSM and unethical
behaviors, such as fraud.  It seems that we might want to go further
in separating VSM as an analytical tool from concerns such as ethics
in any aspect.  Partially because ethics are so much in the eye of the
beholder, but mostly because of the demonstrable viability of
unethical organizations.  With respect to instances of fraudulent
financial institutions, and arguably in such cases as Al Qaeda, etc.,
some organizations maintain a discomfiting level of apparent
viability.

Doug

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Russell,
> Another  point I feel vis a vis the VSM.......
> As Black says, this is massive and conscious fraud rather than any sort of
> systemic failure.
>
> And my anxiety about a naive use of tools such as VSM is to assume that
> 'systems' viability might have the critical mass to regulate or control such
> things as greed, criminality and fraud.
> As we all know, there are many many absolutely committed and honourable
> individuals taking decisions and running these institutions with the most
> moral intentions. However, what we saw with Bush et al (and according to
> Black what is continuing under Obama) is a deliberate corrupting of social
> institutions for personal rather than societal gain. And the scale of the
> vested interests is the thing that has to be addressed. This is just not
> about systems viability (as Black points out) but about personal gain
> whatever failure of the systems. And the systems viability is then viewed
> just as a distraction from personal interest.
> As a main board director at Amaze, I witnessed this dynamic all the time,
> without fully understanding the reasons (I was too naive to believe that
> people were so cynically undermining and hindering good practice). I entered
> my period as a director believing that people wanted systemic
> viability.....I ended, believing very few people are at all concerned with
> systemic viability,
>
> Roger
>
> On 20 Mar 2010, at 11:53, russell_c wrote:
>
> Roger,
>
> The implications for viability seem ominous -- after the earlier US Savings
> & Loan crisis there appeared to be some degree of auditing feedback leading
> to some level of accountability and consequence (system learning). If
> Black's perspective is accurate then this 'quality' has been lost and there
> appears to be a feed forward process in effect. That was my point.
>
> regards
> Russell
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Russell.......
>>
>> Well, I'll be interested to hear what Stefan, Trevor and others have to
>> say. Very convincing (and ominous about the way ahead),
>> Roger
>> On 20 Mar 2010, at 00:34, russell_c wrote:
>>
>> This is worth a view imo. One very sick system.
>>
>> William Black, author of "Best way to rob a bank is to own one" talks
>> about deliberate fraud on Wall St.
>>
>>
>> http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4937&updaterx=2010-03-19+06%3A34%3A30
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-- 

Doug McDavid
[log in to unmask]
916-549-4600

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
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