LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  November 2009

UCD-STAFFORDBEER November 2009

Subject:

Re: the girl who silenced the world for five minutes

From:

Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:00:56 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (217 lines)

I agree Barry. My main point is that the environmentalists always like  
to paint themselves as being gooder than good and so on. Greenpeace  
and Friends of the Earth are massive machines just as the oil  
corporations etc are and also have hired scientists to argue their case.

I can only quote from the TV series of past "The Greenhouse  
Conspiracy" which pointed out that it was pretty difficult to get a  
grant if you were a scientist that was not totally convinced that  
global warming is caused by man. The whole debate is so one sided. I  
remember putting up an url or two that from a university website  
arguing that global warming may be caused by concentrations of water  
vapour in the atmosphere. The silence here was deafening.

I know of academics who are very uneasy about this one sideness but  
there's not much point in debating this as the environmentalists have  
claimed the moral high ground and their propaganda is very powerfu  
(think of the slick "carbon footprint" campaign)l, I wonder how much  
money the environmentalists get from those businesses that will profit  
in seeing reductions made in CO2 and so on?

Yes the issues are complex which means of course *by their very  
complexity*, we cannot should not be so certain that man has caused or  
is the sole contributor of global warming. That attitude reeks of  
anthrocentric arrogance and even worse is the pathetic notion that we,  
puny humans, can actually change what maybe a cyclic event!

Also how can you trust meteorologists who could not even get their  
predictions for this summer right! When pressed they said that their  
predictions had only a chance of 65% likelihood of happening. Fair  
enough but when it comes to predicting global warming, suddenly there  
are a lot more certain!

Many environmentalists are like most evangelists, moralisers who get  
off telling other people what to do.

I just switch off now when they start but unfortunately more and more  
laws telling us what to do are coming into force.

Ok end of rant. I don't really want to spend time on this but I felt  
that another viewpoint was necessary on that slick marketing video

With that I withdraw (dis)gracefully from the debate.

Frank


On 10 Nov 2009, at 13:57, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:

> Frank,
>
> Of course there is money being made. Of course there is self- 
> interest in keeping the campaign going. But you are pointing to  
> miniscule amounts of money on the environmentalist's side and  
> ignoring tons of money on the other side. And what about the self- 
> interest among the oil companies etc. who hire "scientist" shills,  
> run massive ad campaigns, etc to confuse the issues.
>
> These issues are massively complex and as far as I can see the  
> environmentalists are largely trying to be honest about it and the  
> large corporate deniers are largely trying to confuse the issue. And  
> don't even try to tell me that the majority of scientists are in it  
> to get grant money. That is an argument based on not understanding  
> the way the academic / scientific world works.
>
> Barry
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 3:51 AM, Frank Wood wrote:
>
>> No, Barry, it's not being mean spirited. It's an objection of the  
>> cynical way these people manipulate people by using a child to get  
>> their message across.  The speech was brilliantly crafted to create  
>> an emotional reaction. They, like other evangelists are very good  
>> at this stuff.
>>
>> There's big money being made out of the global warming issue and  
>> therefore a lot of people have self interest in keeping thee  
>> campaign going.
>>
>> And as for impact. What impact? Very little from what I see.
>>
>> Yes, the fact that she comes from a family of environmentalists is  
>> important because this speech was carefully made out to look like a  
>> ordinary child speaking in her own words her fears about global  
>> warming etc.
>>
>> And I wonder if she came by an environmentally polluting airplane  
>> to the conference?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2009, at 02:37, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> Of course she had help writing the speech. No one in their right  
>>> mind, adult or child, addresses such a group without help on their  
>>> speech. And very probably someone wrote the speech for her.
>>>
>>> And of course it is a marketing ploy -- the purpose is clearly to  
>>> persuade.
>>>
>>> And she comes from a family of environmental activists? Is that  
>>> supposed to somehow devalue the speech?
>>>
>>> None of this in any way takes away from the speech or its impact.   
>>> This is clearly a very remarkable child making a very impressive  
>>> speech.
>>>
>>> I do not understand your attempt to belittle her accomplishment in  
>>> delivering such a speech. it seems a little mean-spirited and  
>>> unworthy of you.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:09 PM, Frank Wood wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ok lets get this into ccntext.
>>>>
>>>> Severn if my web research comes from a family of environmentalist  
>>>> activists.
>>>>
>>>> The speech is very cleverly written and I doubt if it was written  
>>>> by her.
>>>>
>>>> The whole thing is a very shrewd marketing exercise.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I'm cynical but as I've studied marketing a little I know a  
>>>> marketing ploy when I see it.
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Nov 2009, at 19:31, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Amazing short video clip of 12 year old addressing the  
>>>>> conference at Brazil earlier this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really amazing,
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6upL62Pyjo
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>>> www.barryclemson.net
>>> 757-622-6673
>>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> BARRY  CLEMSON
> www.barryclemson.net
> 757-622-6673
> Cybernetica Press Inc
> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager