LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  November 2009

UCD-STAFFORDBEER November 2009

Subject:

Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes ***in hospitals***)

From:

Frank Wood <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:43:18 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (309 lines)

Nick,
The Wikipedia article is fair.

I'm not a big fan of the Atkins diet as it is a little too extreme and  
like many diets smacks of control freakery in places.

I believe in a reduced carbohydrate as opposed to a low carb diet and  
this is the approach taken by many Type 2 Diabetics. We simply cut out  
all or most high carb foods such as cereal products such as rice,  
pasta, bread, root products such as carrots, parsnips but not onions  
or garlic, most fruits except berries. We replace these with mostly  
green vegetables and tomatoes. Also milk needs to be drunk sparingly  
because of the sugar lactose. However cheese is fine.

The big mistake made by diabetics was to replace high carbs with  
protein and this put many at risk of renal complications especially  
those with a history of high blood pressure and poor glucose control.

Diabetics don't eat reduced carbs in order to lose weight. They do so  
to ensure good blood glucose control.

The Atkins Diet gets too fancy and as the Wikipedia said often too  
expensive.

So IMO the answer is that the Atkins Diet is a little too extreme for  
Type 2 diabetics. A more simple plan that aims to reduce the amount of  
carbs consumed works well in my experience and many others.

Frank


On 30 Nov 2009, at 03:06, Nick Green wrote:

> Frank
>
> Is there anything wrong with Type 2 people simply going on to the  
> Atkins diet?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Frank Wood" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 11:16 PM
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes ***in hospitals***)
>
>> Not just secrecy Nick, but complicity.
>>
>> There is a growing revolt amongst Type 2 diabetics over the issue  
>> of carbohydrates. At the moment the thinking amongst a great number  
>> of  the medical establishment is that a diet high in carbohydrates  
>> and low  in fat is best for Diabetics. The thinking is that when  
>> the body is  starved of carbs it starts to burn off fat as energy  
>> which is  converted into ketones. So far so good. But what many in  
>> the medical  profession are getting confused about is that they are  
>> confusing  dietary ketosis with Ketoacidosis which is completely  
>> different.  Ketoacidosis has to have a combination of high blood  
>> sugar with lack  of insulin and this does not occur in diabetics  
>> who have well  controlled blood glucose levels.
>>
>> The result of this confusion is that the so called experts who  
>> should know better are STILL claiming that a low fat, high carb  
>> diet is best.  As a result the American Diabetes Association and  
>> Diabetes UK are  still touting recipes for Type 2s that are  
>> dangerously high in carbs.  Time and time again T2s over here have  
>> complained that the diets  recommended in their magazine are not  
>> safe for Type 2s but we are  ignored. What's even worse I notice  
>> that in latest edition of  "Balance" they've now omitted the amount  
>> of carbohydrates contained in  each recipe that they recommend!
>>
>> This is medical fascism at its worst. But diabetics are getting  
>> smart  and learning to trust their own bodies through regular  
>> testing of  their blood. The main worry is that the passive type of  
>> patient will  listen to the rubbish put forward by these "experts"  
>> and as a result  seriously damage their health.
>>
>> Things are changing slowly in the medical establishment but not  
>> with Diabetes UK or American Diabetes Association as far as I can  
>> see.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> On 29 Nov 2009, at 22:52, Nick Green wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Frank. Brain Jarman (Dr Foster) is another good guy. I  
>>> said  he should be doing his thing in realtime. He said he was. If  
>>> you can  call once a month and an annual report real time- so I   
>>> gently  corrected him. Point is a doctor logs in for his shift and  
>>> he is  told one of his patients has MRSA and has been isolated.  
>>> We're up  and running and anybody anywhere wanting to know how  
>>> many MRSA cases  there are today can easily find out. It's the  
>>> secrecy that allows  these things to go unchallenged. My Liverpool  
>>> friend's son with MRSA  was put into a five person room with  
>>> transplant patients! is that  criminal? The age at which a given  
>>> doctor's patients dies might be a  good indicator of the doctor  
>>> and the procedures applied. GP's have  about 8 deaths a year and  
>>> hospital doctors (because there are so  many of them and about  
>>> half deaths are in hospital) about 3. Of  course it's skewed  
>>> because junior doctors do all the routine stuff.  But what do they  
>>> actually do? Add in a couple of out-patient clinics  per week 2-3  
>>> hours each. And then 5-10 minutes with his 2.5 the bed  patients  
>>> each day. In actual fact you could have a couple of doctors  on a  
>>> ward all the time- except that might lead to excessive   
>>> interventions- recall the doctors who went on strike and the  
>>> death  rate went down.
>>> http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/320/7249/1561
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Frank Wood" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 9:30 PM
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes ***in hospitals***)
>>>
>>>> Excellent website Nick. I've bookmarked it in my action folder.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe someone should set up a Rakontu site to catalogue horror   
>>>> stories from the NHS.
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> On 29 Nov 2009, at 21:05, Nick Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes Frank I'm afraid a few criminal prosecutions are long  
>>>>> overdue. Indeed a couple of years ago I sat briefly on a local  
>>>>> police  liaison board. I told the Chief Super there was more  
>>>>> grave crime  committed  in Hospitals than in the High Street  
>>>>> (Camden). He  harrumphed and muttered something about it being a  
>>>>> matter for the  Home Office. Anyway a few weeks later his  
>>>>> opposite number in  Islington (a nearby London Borough) did an  
>>>>> "executive life swap"  for a week with the  head of a large  
>>>>> hospital trust- so there may  be some hope. I'd say  the police  
>>>>> here are well aware of what is  going on but it needs a  nice  
>>>>> open and shut case to turn things  round. But we must continue   
>>>>> to press for reform here. A few years  ago I did this website  
>>>>> which attempted to alert people to these  problems. http:// www.ppif.org.uk/ 
>>>>> . VSM long overdue here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're a long way from being able to sign up to any euthanasia    
>>>>> program with any confidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> N.
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Frank Wood" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:05 PM
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes ***in hospitals***)
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm glad, Nick, you've highlighted the myth of the overworked  
>>>>>> hospital doctor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a friend who said that when they work "long hours" much  
>>>>>> of that time they spend sleeping in their  bunks at the  
>>>>>> hospital as they are paid to be on standby. Nothing wrong with  
>>>>>> that but we  are fed the nonsense that they are over worked.  
>>>>>> Ditto for nurses  and supporting staff if your calculations are  
>>>>>> right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have listened to horror stories from people who have visited  
>>>>>> hopsitals to see patients. It's not overwork that's causing the  
>>>>>> errors, it's a "couldn't give a damn" attitude. Again we're  
>>>>>> fed   with the image of nurses as angels. Sure there are some  
>>>>>> good  ones  but the ones I observe are patronising at best and  
>>>>>> almost   downright evil at worst.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A friend of mine fell (their story) when she attempted to get   
>>>>>> off the toilet. They found her unconscious on the floor. We   
>>>>>> don't know how long she was there for and we don't know if  
>>>>>> that  fall hastened her death a few days later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard from friends and relatives of two cases where  
>>>>>> charts   were left on the wrong beds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If these people were sent to jail then they might start caring   
>>>>>> and doing the job they are paid to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the railways you only have to endanger life to risk getting  
>>>>>> a jail sentence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 29 Nov 2009, at 15:10, Nick Green wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right yes, Luc, a rather poor joke by me. You can see Latour  
>>>>>>> modernity by-passed in, of all things, medicine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In UK news today there's a text book example of the   
>>>>>>> irresponsible science- politics nexus from the basically   
>>>>>>> unaccountable National Health Service. Unaccountable because   
>>>>>>> error rates have no formal controls and were barely counted  
>>>>>>> at  all until recently. Reporting of errors by anybody is  
>>>>>>> resisted  rather than welcomed as vital feedback.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some years ago Sir Brian Jarman (ex Chairman of British  
>>>>>>> Medical Association- the Doctors trade union) realised that  
>>>>>>> people die  in hospital for the wrong reasons. His analysis of  
>>>>>>> patient risk  and viability bears some study. He addresses  
>>>>>>> preventable errors  (e.g. Poor nursing care, misdiagnosis,  
>>>>>>> filthy wards producing   unnecessary deaths) in UK hospitals.  
>>>>>>> Learned references are  given  at the Imperial College site.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BBC Reports
>>>>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/29/nhs-hospitals-safety-report
>>>>>>> Dr Foster website
>>>>>>> http://www.drfosterintelligence.co.uk/
>>>>>>> University base
>>>>>>> http://www1.imperial.ac.uk/medicine/about/divisions/ephpc/pcsm/research/drfosters/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Usual story: ghastly bureaucrats with no incentive for quality  
>>>>>>> doing fuck all or nothing as we say in polite society. Add in   
>>>>>>> the elite: surgeons who by and large won't work at weekends,    
>>>>>>> on Fridays or Wednesday afternoons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The name Dr Foster ( a character who avoids unpleasantness)   
>>>>>>> comes from the children's nursery rhyme. As a word "foster"   
>>>>>>> means nurture.
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Foster
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The NHS is basically a low pay uneducated culture: in   
>>>>>>> hospitals about 75,000 autopoietic and underworked doctors  
>>>>>>> are  supported by more than 1 million (mostly low pay) staff   
>>>>>>> serving, at any one  time about, 185,000 patients in a bed.   
>>>>>>> That is an extraordinary  variety equation. Fewer staff  
>>>>>>> getting  in each others way and more  hand washing would be  
>>>>>>> the "$2.50  relay" solution here. Far too  much statistically  
>>>>>>> naive (false  positive rates are largely  unknown) time  
>>>>>>> wasting ritual  bullshit that only the gullible can  believe  
>>>>>>> survives in UK's  NHS -and elsewhere I wouldn't doubt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> N.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Luc Hoebeke
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:23 AM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Nick,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No missing vowel. In Serb and Croat languages this r is    
>>>>>>> pronounced er as in her.
>>>>>>> Having followed this thread, I learn how the old  
>>>>>>> responsibility avoiding mechanism between Pope and Emperor has  
>>>>>>> shifted towards Science and Politics. We never have been  
>>>>>>> modern as Bruno Latour eloquently argues in his book with the  
>>>>>>> same title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Op 29-nov-09, om 03:17 heeft Nick Green het volgende geschreven:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brklacic an imperfect clone of Stafford? The missing vowel in   
>>>>>>> his name surely proves this. Anyway New Scientist went with   
>>>>>>> this  saying this week "Climate researchers have been  
>>>>>>> inundated  with  what feels like malicious demands for their  
>>>>>>> data" Why  aren't the  data downloadable and come to that how  
>>>>>>> about a  listing of their  program - like the Meadows etc did  
>>>>>>> with Limits  to Growth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: russell_c
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 9:53 PM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: The Next 100 Years ($2.50 causes)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And just when you thought is was safe to believe the simple  
>>>>>>> story:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Hacked climate change email furore" -- Hacked climate change  
>>>>>>> emails  - a tempest in a teapot or a real storm? Paul Jay  
>>>>>>> talks  to Michael  Brklacic, November 28, 2009.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager