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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  November 2009

UCD-STAFFORDBEER November 2009

Subject:

Re: VSM as a principle of evolution

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:40:34 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (133 lines)

Arthur,

Apologies for confusing the issue once again.

In the light with what you have just said, don't forget that at every  
level of recursion the social organisation maintains its structural  
coupling with the dynamically changing environment (that at each  
level, there is a S4 function). And, indeed, this is where VSM is  
stronger than a mechanism such as autopoiesis, for the description of  
intentional human social interaction.

What Stafford has done, which Maturana  was not interested in doing,  
is to situate the 'producing itself' at different levels and  
dimensions  of recursion, in  order to describe something useful about  
human social organisations as opposed to human beings. Maturana's is  
far more a 'flat' world focusing on languaging, emotioning and  
cognition , where VSM allows us to consider the recurrent interactions  
of languaging, emotioning, cognitve beings in terms of particular  
recurrent configurations (such as culture),

Roger
On 19 Nov 2009, at 10:03, Arthur Dijkstra wrote:

> Roger,
> My knowledge of evolutionary principles is limited. I was thinking  
> of a
> description of the VSM as a principle for organisational evolution.  
> This in
> a Darwinian sense. Sys 1,2,3 as producing itself and sys 4,5 as  
> maintaining
> structural coupling with the environment with a desired identity.
> I think about A evolutionary principle not THE evolutionary principle.
> Thanks,
> Arthur
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Roger Harnden
> Verzonden: donderdag 19 november 2009 10:10
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: VSM as a principle of evolution
>
> It depends what you mean by 'evolutionary principle' - seriously.
>
> Jacob Bronowski saw it as a sort of ratchet affair in which the
> ratchet could only click one way, but might not reverse. Darwin as we
> all know had a version of natural selection and survival of the
> fittest that closely mirrored certain ideological factors. These were
> exagerated by the later 'social darwinists'. Maturana would accomodate
> genes, but see these as granting a predisposition for particualr
> epigenetic developments in congruence with environmental dynamics.
> Others would see the gene itself as driving evolution. Jansch saw it
> as an evolutionary unfolding in a series of symmetry breaks best
> described in terms of an opening spiral. Chardin saw this process
> driven by an end-point - the noosphere - a unified variegated joint
> experience for all humanity
>
> Stafford himself at various places traces certain aspects of the model
> in terms of increasing complexity of interactions that loosely mirror
> the trajectory of simple life forms, aggregates,  complex organisms,
> groups of organisms (society), languaging, mentation and the
> spiritual. Thus S2 triggers a change of state from isolated unities
> into an aggregate, which,though a recognisable aggregate, has no
> higher order functions (think of slime mould). With S3 he have the
> flickers of organic unity, in terms of which the parts now are
> internalised and subservient to a 'high order' simple unity. There is
> memory but no reflection of foresight. With S4, of course there is the
> introduction of higher functions of the nervous system and brain, a
> hightened circular loop between inside and outside, and the flickering
> of foresight and reflection as in emerging humankind. With S5 we see
> an awakening of the very highest human functions.
>
> Roger
>
>
> On 19 Nov 2009, at 07:56, Arthur Dijkstra wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> Would you agree to the statement that the VSM is a way to explain the
>> evolutionary principle ?
>> I think of two requirements for survival as producing itself and
>> (continued)adaption to the environment.
>> Thanks for your comments,
>> Arthur
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
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>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
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>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
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>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
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>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
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