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Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: derek charles <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Irish Bird Network <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:28:06 +0000
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hello Rick/Lee,

thanks for a couple of well considered posts.

 

The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at all. On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it looked considerably bigger that the Herrings.

 

I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.

 

Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x Herring hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out Glaucous involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only one or two pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like with one or two pro Herring features.

 

I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could be wrong of course.

 

What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.

 

Derek

 

 


 
> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> To: [log in to unmask]
> 
> I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> 
> I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye is
> going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one, but
> I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike that
> the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add that I
> think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these things
> are very hard to judge from photos.
> 
> Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply that
> it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland complex
> hybrid been considered?
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> 
> > Hello Mike,
> >
> > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a 2ndw
> > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It also
> > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any Herring or
> > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts for
> > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even had a
> > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> >
> > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by un-suspecting
> > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> >
> >
> >
> > derek
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > From: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I
> > > think.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > >
> > >
> > > > Gentlemen,
> > > >
> > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is
> > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may
> > not
> > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > please
> > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > bird.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > >
> > > > Rónán
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Mícheál,
> > > >>
> > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this
> > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > >>
> > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > appearance,
> > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye
> > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than
> > the
> > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand
> > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions
> > re
> > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions from
> > > >> the USA?
> > > >>
> > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of
> > a
> > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > supposed
> > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > tertials
> > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well
> > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
> > > >>
> > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards
> > > >>
> > > >> Mike
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > >>
> > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid,
> > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out
> > as
> > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > >>
> > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well
> > "1st
> > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > >>
> > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L,
> > which
> > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > >>
> > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other
> > gull
> > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish
> > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > concentrated
> > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >> Mícheál
> > > >>
> > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my
> > new
> > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > page
> > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> All,
> > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > >>> again had
> > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > First
> > > >>> Red
> > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the
> > bird
> > > >>> been
> > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > >>
> > > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > both
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> >
 		 	   		  
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