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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2009

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2009

Subject:

Re: New Economics in the Classic Mode

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:43:45 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (241 lines)

Dear Stefan,

For an initiative like this, Soros is probably relying on professional foundation staff.  They'll come up with guidelines and an application procedure which might or might not be a good fit for Metaphorum.  It couldn't hurt to ask for the guidelines information.  Even if it doesn't fit for Metaphorum (e.g. not US based) someone else on the network might be able to make use of it.

Allenna


----- Original Message ----
From: Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, October 29, 2009 12:07:07 PM
Subject: Re: New Economics in the Classic Mode

He doesn't give money that way, and it is naive to think that our approach is right in their eyes.

How are you going to approach him, are you going to get to the real man or a gate-keeper, will you have a message that's clear and understandable..........?

I've sold new ideas into markets with little reference frame and just saying 'let's got to him and ask is not the way to do it' the consequences are worse for us, we will be seen as a wacky tribe.

So let's get real and use some strategy here, that's what we're good at!

Stefan

On 29 Oct 2009, at 16:00, Frank Wood wrote:

> I would have thought that $50 million would be more useful in helping small companies and those that are helping the hungry to find means to assuage that hunger. Once again the academics theorise whilst the planet burns.
> 
> Frank
> 
> On 29 Oct 2009, at 14:11, allenna leonard wrote:
> 
>> Dear Stuart and All,
>> 
>> If George Soros is allocating $50 million or so to rethinking economics, maybe we should think about asking for support for a Metaphorum Conference/publication on the topic.
>> 
>> Stuart, your work would be a good beginning.
>> 
>> Allenna
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Stuart Umpleby <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:34:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: New Economics in the Classic Mode
>> 
>> I received no funds from George Soros for the ASC.  I did write an
>> article explaining Soros's theory of reflexivity, which I think is a
>> very important contribution to philosophy and social science,
>> including economics.  See
>> http://www.gwu.edu/~umpleby/recent_papers/2007_SRBS_Reflexivity_Theory.pdf.
>> In my opinion Soros's work is very close to second order cybernetics.
>> Indeed it provides a connection between second order cybernetics and
>> economics, finance, and political science.  Hence, his work is an
>> important application of recent cybernetics thinking, thus
>> demonstrating the practical relevance of cybernetics.  Although he
>> developed his ideas outside the community of cyberneticians and
>> systems scientists, his ideas are quite compatible.
>>  I think that climate change and the financial crisis are two trends
>> that are bringing about renewed interest in systems science.  If you
>> read Soros's work, you will quickly see the relationship between the
>> financial crisis and systems science.  Indeed, I have recently
>> suggested that "reflexivity" should succeed "complexity" as the next
>> step in the systems sciences.  See www.gwu.edu/~uscs.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> Thanks for your faith in me Ern!
>>> Now you've made me think...................and I'll hold you to the friends
>>> assistance bit..
>>> Still thinking!
>>> Stefan
>>> On 28 Oct 2009, at 11:32, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>> 
>>> Stefan,
>>> 
>>> Please do write the book yourself.  With your specialized experience and
>>> unifying viewpoint, coupled with whatever examples and critiques you
>>> could draw from your fans on this listserv along the way, such a work would
>>> start out with a rapid research base that most authors would envy.
>>> 
>>> Soros' book The Alchemy of Finance: Reading the Mind of the Market, (Simon &
>>> Schuster, New York 1987) was a freebie handout in a graduate cybernetics
>>> class I enjoyed around 1990.  In it he did give a fine explanation
>>> of reflexivity in the stock market.
>>> 
>>> If truly guided by compelling insights from the Viable Systems Model, a new
>>> improved economics framework could be expected to turn out a whole lot more
>>> conservative than Soros' personal political inclinations.  I once got on
>>> Stafford's grumpy side with my paper "The Tory Stafford Beer" (Thatcher was
>>> anathema to him), until we met and my further explanation of his own work
>>> mollified him.
>>> 
>>> Lesson taken was this:  today's political liberals (the classic advocates of
>>> state dictation) always carry regulatory matters too far, while today's
>>> political conservatives (the classic liberals) instinctively stop short of
>>> going far enough.  The VSM demonstrates just how far one could and should
>>> go!
>>> 
>>> Ern Reynolds
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:36:57 +0000 Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>
>>> writes:
>>>> I'm afraid I'm so cynical of Soros's attempts and all the people he
>>>> 
>>>> gets are the same old dominant logic.
>>>> 
>>>> further!
>>>> 
>>>> I have a mind to write the book myself!
>>>> 
>>>> Stefan
>>>> 
>>>> On 28 Oct 2009, at 00:19, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> George Soros is putting some serious money into trying to develop
>>>> a
>>>>> new, improved economics framework.
>>>>> The Newsweek article in the previous email provides some of the
>>>>> details.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Barry
>>>>> 
>>>>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>>> www.barryclemson.net
>>>>> 757-622-6673
>>>>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>>> 
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> 
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>> 
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>> 
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>> 
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
>>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
>>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> 
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more
>>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative
>>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList
>>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational Learning
>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>> Washington, DC 20052
>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>> 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> 
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>> 
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> 
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>     __________________________________________________________________
>> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
>> 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> 
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>> 
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> 
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



      __________________________________________________________________
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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