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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2009

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2009

Subject:

Re: New Economics in the Classic Mode

From:

Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:55:35 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (193 lines)

Thank you very much Stuart!

I'm reading your paper at a very important time for me.

I will admit to not seeing Soros such and to being biased, so will  
open my mind.

However I don't think I will change my opinion at the base level  
because I met his people and him many years ago and interactions after  
only confirmed the opinion.

Stefan

On 29 Oct 2009, at 03:34, Stuart Umpleby wrote:

> I received no funds from George Soros for the ASC.  I did write an
> article explaining Soros's theory of reflexivity, which I think is a
> very important contribution to philosophy and social science,
> including economics.  See
> http://www.gwu.edu/~umpleby/recent_papers/2007_SRBS_Reflexivity_Theory.pdf 
> .
> In my opinion Soros's work is very close to second order cybernetics.
> Indeed it provides a connection between second order cybernetics and
> economics, finance, and political science.  Hence, his work is an
> important application of recent cybernetics thinking, thus
> demonstrating the practical relevance of cybernetics.  Although he
> developed his ideas outside the community of cyberneticians and
> systems scientists, his ideas are quite compatible.
>   I think that climate change and the financial crisis are two trends
> that are bringing about renewed interest in systems science.  If you
> read Soros's work, you will quickly see the relationship between the
> financial crisis and systems science.  Indeed, I have recently
> suggested that "reflexivity" should succeed "complexity" as the next
> step in the systems sciences.  See www.gwu.edu/~uscs.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Stefan Wasilewski  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Thanks for your faith in me Ern!
>> Now you've made me think...................and I'll hold you to the  
>> friends
>> assistance bit..
>> Still thinking!
>> Stefan
>> On 28 Oct 2009, at 11:32, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>
>> Stefan,
>>
>> Please do write the book yourself.  With your specialized  
>> experience and
>> unifying viewpoint, coupled with whatever examples and critiques you
>> could draw from your fans on this listserv along the way, such a  
>> work would
>> start out with a rapid research base that most authors would envy.
>>
>> Soros' book The Alchemy of Finance: Reading the Mind of the Market,  
>> (Simon &
>> Schuster, New York 1987) was a freebie handout in a graduate  
>> cybernetics
>> class I enjoyed around 1990.  In it he did give a fine explanation
>> of reflexivity in the stock market.
>>
>> If truly guided by compelling insights from the Viable Systems  
>> Model, a new
>> improved economics framework could be expected to turn out a whole  
>> lot more
>> conservative than Soros' personal political inclinations.  I once  
>> got on
>> Stafford's grumpy side with my paper "The Tory Stafford  
>> Beer" (Thatcher was
>> anathema to him), until we met and my further explanation of his  
>> own work
>> mollified him.
>>
>> Lesson taken was this:  today's political liberals (the classic  
>> advocates of
>> state dictation) always carry regulatory matters too far, while  
>> today's
>> political conservatives (the classic liberals) instinctively stop  
>> short of
>> going far enough.  The VSM demonstrates just how far one could and  
>> should
>> go!
>>
>> Ern Reynolds
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:36:57 +0000 Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask] 
>> >
>> writes:
>>> I'm afraid I'm so cynical of Soros's attempts and all the people he
>>>
>>> gets are the same old dominant logic.
>>>
>>> further!
>>>
>>> I have a mind to write the book myself!
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>> On 28 Oct 2009, at 00:19, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>>>
>>>> George Soros is putting some serious money into trying to develop
>>> a
>>>> new, improved economics framework.
>>>> The Newsweek article in the previous email provides some of the
>>>> details.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> BARRY  CLEMSON
>>>> www.barryclemson.net
>>>> 757-622-6673
>>>> Cybernetica Press Inc
>>>> Denmark Rising is now available at my web site
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>   www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more
>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative
>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org  
>> METAPHORUM eList
>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For  
>> more
>> information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
>> Collaborative
>> Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org  
>> METAPHORUM eList
>> Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> -- 
> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational Learning
> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
> Washington, DC 20052
> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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