LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L  March 2009

OLD-IRISH-L March 2009

Subject:

Re: Poem by Cináed the Wise 14

From:

Neil McLeod <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:18:57 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (125 lines)

Liz Gabay wrote:
>> BB  108 r col a
>> Nocho n-uair fortacht fill fumuin
>> acht torcdacht trich teme[i]l
>> co toracht iar ng[n]th-gliaid ngalaig
>> fth-[li]aid fabaig Feimin
>>
>> Lec  fol 221 v col a
>> Nocho n-uair furtacht fill fumain
>> acht torcdacht trag temeal.
>> co toracht iar ngnth-gliaig ngalaig
>> fth-liaig fabaig Femin


> Not transitory (the) frail help (fumuin?)
> but miserable violence of gloom
> until arrival after customary brave combat 
> (the) intestinal prophecy-healer of Femin. 

>     The DIL headword for 'nicon' describes the word as an "adverb of 
> negation...later with lenited c nocho (n-), nocha (n-) which prevail in later 
> Middle Irish".  Could this word help in dating the text? 

That's a good point. From the discussion at DIL N 45.85-46.8, and 
Jackson, 'Aislinge meic Con Glinne' p 105, the progression seems to be 
roughly as follows.

Old Irish: ncon
Early Middle Irish (from c AD 900): noco; noco n- 			
Middle Irish (from c AD 1000): nocho; nocho n-
Late Middle Irish (from c AD 1100) - nocha; nocha n-

In both Old and Middle Irish, the word causes lenition of a following 
consonant. The Middle Irish forms with n- occur before vowels and 
lenited 'f'.

In the Early Modern Irish period, 'nocha' causes eclipsis of a 
consonant, though nochan appears beffore a vowel and (lenited) 'f'.

So our form here belongs most comfortably to the period AD 1000-1100. My 
supposition has been that the poet 'Cined the Wise' is Cined a 
hArtacin, who died in AD 987. In his time we would more likely have 
found 'noco n-'.  But it would take very little for a later scribe to 
copy 'noco n-' as 'nocho n-' by adding a mark of lenition.

>      I thought 'uair' was 'uair' (an hour...passing, momentary, 
> transitory...a time, any time, an occaison...used after negative with intensive 
> force". ) 

I suspect that it is 'fuair' s3 pret of 'fo-gaib' with the silent 
lenited 'f' omitted (which is not uncommon).

>     I could not figure out the word 'fumuin/fumain'.

My either. At first I thought it might be gen. sg. of o,m 'omun' (fear) 
- this time with an added prosthetic 'f'. (Which is all a bit hilarious 
given how I am taking 'uair'.) But in the end I went for the kill and 
decided it was an error for 'umail', gen sg. of 'umal' (attendant) - 
meaning that he got no proper nursing at all until Fingin showed up.

> DIL defines 'torcdacht' with a question mark as "violence?"

It also notes that the word is from 'torcda' (boar), so perhaps it 
refers particularly to brutal, wild, behaviour.

> Both the entry for 'truag' and the entry for 'temel' say that "temel truag" 
> is "frequently in chevilles".

I hadn't noticed that. It certainly helps a great deal. [In fact DIL T 
114.48 says that 'teimel' is frequent in chevilles, and cites four, only 
one of which (SR 909) has 'trag' in it (and in the reverse order to 
what we have here). DIL T 323.19 merely cites SR 909 as an example of 
'trag' and notes that it is a cheville there. Greene translates 'temel 
truag' in SR 909 as "pitiful gloom". But nevertheless, I think we 
probably have a cheville here too.]

> I thought 'toracht' might be the verbal noun of do-roich "act of arriving at, 
> coming up to".  Alternatively, it could be a variant of 'turracht' which DIL 
> defines as "support?" with a question mark.

I'm taking it as 3 sg pret of 'do-roich', following the conjunction 'co' 
(until).

>   I found the phrase "gleo galach" in the DIL entry for 'galach' at approximately 
> G 36.12.

Yes (G 36.13) And as well as 'gleo galach' (hot battle) it has the 
roughly parallel 'ar ngreis galach' (after a hot attack). At first I 
thought this might refer to Fingin's lunge at Tadg withe the red-hot 
coulter. But he can't do that before he even arrives. So in the end I 
thought this 'feverish struggle' referred to Tadg rolling struggling to 
survive his wounds, in a semi-daze with a high fever.

>    'fath-liaig' looked like a compound of 'fath' (prophecy, prophetic wisdom, 
> skill").   It also translates "composition, maxim" and I thought it might have a 
> double meaning here, in light of the other poetry terms in the few previous 
> stanzas.  I thought the second half of the compound was 'liaig' (healer).

Yes. We already met Fngin Fith-liaig, the seer-physician of Femin, in 
22 of the prose version of this event.

>    'fabach' translates "fling, cast or throw..an aim, effort, or attempt" but 
> could also be a variant of "fobach...undercutting or breaking...entrails, 
> intestines".  I wondered if there was such a thing as a 'liaig' who specialized in 
> reading the meaning of intestines or treating injuries of intestines?

The best I could come up with was 'apaig' meaning ripe, mature, 
well-prepared. The idea being that he was highly experienced; the 
master of his art.

Here is my attempt at a translation:

 >> BB  108 r col a
 >> Nocho n-uair fortacht fill fumuin [read: umail?]
 >> acht torcdacht trich teme[i]l
 >> co toracht iar ng[n]th-gliaid ngalaig
 >> fth-[li]aid fabaig Feimin

"He did not obtain gentle relief from an attendant (MSS 'from fear')
but rather roughness, pitiable the gloom,
Until there arrived, after a feverish, unrelenting struggle,
the seasoned seer-physician of Femen."

Neil

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager