No, it is not the Cad Godeu. It is a story told of the cause of the Cad
Godeu battle, as found in the earlier poem.
Given the late date of the appearance of Achren, I'm now thinking there may
well be something to the often stated notion that this represents a form of
the ochren found in the 'Spoils of Annwm'. We find there Caer Ochren as a
designation for the underworld/otherworld, and Annwm, the Welsh otherworld,
does figure prominently in the Cad Godeu. Ochren has itself been subjected
to several interpretations, but most connect it to Welsh ochrm 'slope
(mountain side), hill'.
This might be the most adequate solution to the problem?
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:50 AM, David Stifter
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Stag-Spirit wrote:
> > Achren, Dennis, is the 17th century MS. Peniarth 98b pp. 81-82.
> What text and what manuscript is this? This is not Kat Godeu. KG is
> in Llyfr Taliesin, which is Peniarth 2.
> So let's recapitulate what we have so far:
> 1. An word "achrann" (or "eachrann") that is only attested in the
> modern Gaelic languages. It's not clear if it existed in OIr. and
> what it would have looked like then. It could be OIr. *achrann, but
> it could also be *echrann or conceivably also *fochrann, although a
> number of difficulties beset the latter form.
> 2. There is the Welsh name of a lady, "Achren", whose relationship to
> KG has remained unclear so far. She does not figure in the poem KG.
> Even more so, KG is a notoriously obscure piece of poetry that treats
> a number of quite diverse subject matters. A tree-battle is only one
> of those. There is no reason to suppose that just about any word
> occurring in KG (let alone names that may have some vague connection
> with KG) must have an arboreal significance.
> 3. Irish "achrann" and Welsh "Achren" cannot be etymologically
> related, unless one is a loan from the other, for which, however,
> there is not even the tiniest shred of evidence.
> So, what exactly do you want to prove?
> > Strange that you should pass along Haycock's rendering of Nefenhir! I
> > had addressed that issue with Dr. Isaac Graham (now at the National
> > University of Ireland, Galway) a long time ago, in the context of
> > Nefen(Hir) possibly relating to the Novantae tribe of SW Scotland.
> > His response? Absolutely impossible.
> It is true that the derivation from the Nouantes has its formal
> problems, but it surely is not "absolutely impossible". They can be
> overcome by assuming a modest amount of hypercorrect or archaising
> > When I asked about Nefyn, found
> > in the place-name on Lleyn (a name derived either from the Laighin or
> > Ui Leithain who settled there), and the Nefyn paired with Urien of
> > Rheged, who said that absolutely this name was cognate with Irish
> > Nemhain.
> Yet this says nothing about Nefenhir (or Nefenhyr). Is there a
> tradition about a figure called Nefyn Hir?