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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with Frank

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:07:35 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (556 lines)

That's very useful, Luc,

Roger
On 5 Dec 2008, at 13:04, Luc Hoebeke wrote:

> Dear Roger,
>
> I try to paraphrase what I understood from your little rant.
>
> Having worked with directors of SME's in Barcelona, which in spite  
> of all the crisis talk are doing good business although a bit more  
> stressful because of the "crisis", I can refer how they look at  
> their role in society. Wealth and well-being are generated through  
> relations, in fact variety in the cybernetic sense. Policy makers  
> and big organizations are in the business of breaking relations,  
> relations with their workers and employees, relations with their  
> voters, relations with people in general, hence than cannot do  
> anything else than create scarcity (monoculture as Allenna would  
> say). This is because the only variety-reduction mechanism they  
> understand is divide to rule, practically to classify everything  
> neatly in boxes or EXCEL cells. What is called economy of scale are  
> scarcity creating machines, because the way they define efficiency  
> is by looking at their entreprises(cost and profit centres) as  
> closed systems. The cost of breaking relations and the ensueing  
> desertification is left for the many: costs socialized and profits  
> (stemming from this pseudo-efficiency) privatized. What happens with  
> the banks and now with the automotive industry in the USA is a  
> shameful example of the ineptness of mainstream economical theory,  
> which starts from the premice that the basic unit of decision is the  
> individual ,as if an identity, even of an individual, is not a  
> relational concept (as in the VSM). That is the reason why I am  
> engaging in "systems" thinking and practice, by rebuilding relations  
> where they have been severed. Wealth and well-being are the normal  
> subproducts, mostly not to be found in accounting. Accounting is  
> doing as if nothing is linked to other items, only by addition.  
> There we go for accountability. Instead of asking who is guilty, the  
> question is what are the severed relations which create the concept  
> of guiltiness and the ensueing lack of wealth and wellbeing.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Luc
>
>
> Op 5-dec-08, om 13:06 heeft Roger Harnden het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Frank, I think it is all tangled up with concepts  like 'paradigms,  
>> 'dominant logic', 'horizon'.
>>
>> And the systemic tendency in our modern form of capitalism then  
>> dominates and seeks to claim any middle ground in its imposition of  
>> things like 'political correctness' , 'freedom', democracy,  
>> 'equality' all of which then become denatured, leaving the  
>> individuals who genuinely aspire towards living such values, adrift.
>>
>> For a concrete example (and I'll make an effort to contain my own  
>> sliding into jargon, here):
>>
>> A lot of us are old enough  to remember those debates in the  
>> seventies and eighties about the nature of future work and leisure;  
>> the impact of ever increasing automation etc. We all did our bit of  
>> reading of Toffler, Barry Sherman, Giles Merritt etc. And I, for  
>> one (because I am intrinsically the sort of lost spirit to which  
>> Stefan refers), genuinely looked forward to a future in which time  
>> spent on paid work became less and time spent on leisure (unpaid  
>> work) became more. Because, I intuited that the SURPLUS created by  
>> the excess would not flow into unregulated money markets and  
>> service industries created specifically to soak up such excess, but  
>> would flow towards what I call HUMAN values - welfare, education,  
>> health, sustainable development, dissemination of wealth world-wide.
>>
>> The truly shocking thing to me in the current crisis, is that we  
>> have all been made aware of the fantastically enormous scale of  
>> that money squirrelled away into a more-or-less closed system,  
>> called 'the markets' 9which, ironiocally, are nothing to do with  
>> our traditional view of markets, in which people of all sorts came  
>> together socially, to present and exchange goods and services to  
>> one another. As we all now know, automation did in fact generate  
>> enormous surplus,. It is now real (not speculative) and in amounts  
>> far exceeding what we then dreamt, or what anyone has been telling  
>> citizens. And, as we have come to witness the real scale of these  
>> accrued surplus' it is truly horrific and INHUMAN to see what a  
>> small ration would be needed to revolutionise many many aspects of  
>> many many societies world-wide, as well as our own. But this is  
>> still treated as a 'blindspot' in our social and economic discourse.
>>
>> So in fact what we have in terms of our economic social  
>> organisation, is formal social organisations becoming filled with  
>> more and more people (even though, historically speaking there are  
>> less and less employees), doing increasingly overlapping tasks.  
>> Organisations are becoming ever more SPONGY, unaccountable and  
>> inhuman. The unaccountability is because (just like the unaccounted  
>> and invisible funds) no one wants to expose the SPONGINESS (think  
>> of baby P etc).
>>
>> And, so we are in an economic climate where everyone (in whatever  
>> profession) feels the need to work harder and harder, yet cover  
>> more and more things, and do worse and worse at their core job,  
>> because they are spread so thin - instead of a situation -0surely  
>> more human - in which people are able to spend more focused time on  
>> their core occupation because more people are employed to take  
>> account of the variety of tasks needing to be done well in a  
>> coordinated fashion.
>>
>> At the same time, we have NO increase in LEISURE time - though we  
>> do have  a massive increase in LEISURE SPEND.
>>
>> So, Stefan, my Karma might have been bad, but so has been the karma  
>> for our present economic, social national and international systems.
>>
>> And, Frank, I do not think this is confronting cybernetics with an  
>> insurmountable challenge, because I think it can be captured  
>> (indicated - GSB)_ and defined (distinguished - GSB), and addressed  
>> through various aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once more, the  
>> issue of the impact of cybernetics is, more, I believe to do with  
>> our confidence as to our identity, and a more clearly ennunciated  
>> message (inside our community and outside to the world) about what  
>> we actually DO. This concerns languaging, as we have variously  
>> talked about over the years, including the specific terms used, for  
>> example, about the various VSM systems.
>>
>> Roger
>> On 4 Dec 2008, at 23:39, Frank wrote:
>>
>>> Roger,
>>> thanks for a powerful and interesting reply.
>>>
>>> There's not much more that I can add to it.
>>>
>>> I suppose on one level when I wade through the academese I see  
>>> myself as outside but when I'm writing as here, I see myself as  
>>> inside. Although I may come across as critical of academese, I'm  
>>> critical in the context of is there going to be steps to get  
>>> cybernetics out to businesses and businessmen?
>>>
>>> Maybe it's a case of a ferment. Where something practical emerges  
>>> out of the theorising and then this is taken to the "masses" so to  
>>> speak. By practical I mean something that can be used by  
>>> consultants as they implement the principles of cybernetics.
>>>
>>> But of course there will be massive problems. Organisation man  
>>> will not take kindly to cybernetics. Take the Law of Requisite  
>>> Variety. It's true that knowledge is power. In this case knowledge  
>>> of the processes of an organisation is also responsibility. Which  
>>> means that when something ends in disaster no one can say "I  
>>> didn't know what was happening". So proper controls a la Law of  
>>> Requisite Variety will be fiercely resisted by all, right down to  
>>> the shop floor.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Harnden" <[log in to unmask] 
>>> >
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:52 AM
>>> Subject: Metaphorum Identity - outside and inside
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> I think this relates to Javier's words on S3/S4 activities of the
>>> Metaphorum community. As he indicates, RH is clearly S4, and has
>>> littler interest unless forced, in moving from that identity. The  
>>> only
>>> problem is that there needs to be further S3 input - not that RH S4
>>> ceases or becomes S3. And I think you are proposing the need for  
>>> that
>>> in a particular domain (in other words, in some such thing as
>>> LISTSERVE).
>>>
>>> Your comparison may or may not be apposite, and as we have both
>>> indicated it might be tackled by one of two main ways:
>>>
>>> 1. clearer, more accessible language
>>> 2. a different listserve.
>>>
>>> However, a real issue, indicated by this very interaction between
>>> myself and you, is that the advise (from you) is advice from  
>>> outside,
>>> as it were. In other words, though participating you are adopting  
>>> the
>>> position of an outsider to something that HAS insiders. This is a
>>> fascinating issue of Boundaries (which Russell has commented on in a
>>> somewhat different context in the wiki).
>>>
>>> Because, over the months and years, this sort of mixed dialogue has
>>> been quite regular. Now I don't know whether this is  
>>> characteristic of
>>> this sort of forum. or pathological (in other words) indicating
>>> something wrong with this particular forum). You are talking with me
>>> as if I am an INSIDER, but, Frank, I am talking with you as also an
>>> INSIDER. This is a fascinating instance of the play of structure and
>>> organisation in practice (M&V). The shifting configurations of
>>> structure in this instance are individuals coming and going, and
>>> through their coming and going and recurrent interactions, coupling
>>> Metaphorum to a niche (that itself is instanced by individuals  
>>> coming
>>> and going). However, for the OBSERVER (in this case RH and FW) there
>>> is a meta-level coupling (In Pasks's language CONVERSATION) in which
>>> the two individuals CHOOSE their operational reality in a Spencer
>>> Brown manner. In this first instance, you are Choosing outside
>>> Metaphorum which has RH as inside; but I am choosing inside  
>>> Metaphorum
>>> as including FW).
>>>
>>> For those practitioners amongst us, this should be quite valuable  
>>> and
>>> interesting in indicating new tools and methods, because, guys, it
>>> goes on all the time in terms of social organisations which are in
>>> some shape or form 'organisationally' closed, but 'informationally'
>>> open.
>>>
>>> So there's a good old paradox. Are you in or are you out? Is RH in  
>>> or
>>> is he out?
>>>
>>> Now, for me (and I am not saying this is the case for others) the
>>> present LISTSERVE should service this ambiguity, because that domain
>>> of uncertainty is at the heart of any learning domain. But you are
>>> 100% correct, that a learning domain is very different from a  
>>> sales or
>>> marketing domain.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:57, Roger Harnden wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> I suppose what I am saying is that there should be another space   
>>>> that IS explicitly outward facing, but that LISTSERVE members  
>>>> have  access to for their outwardfacingness.
>>>>
>>>> Or doesn't that make sense?
>>>> Roger
>>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:23, Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roger,
>>>>> agreed. I was on the Complex-M listserv for some years. It was   
>>>>> intimate and personal and we had our rows like any family :-)  
>>>>> and  it was a great mix of professioanals, academics and  
>>>>> managers and we  for the most part all spoke in a clear language  
>>>>> and those that  didn't were from time to time pulled up on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a platform for individuals  
>>>>> to launch themselves."
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless you are going to plan a separate listserv along the  
>>>>> above  line you will not get much interest from business. IMO  
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Harnden" <[log in to unmask]
>>>>> >
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Toward a viable economy #2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank
>>>>>
>>>>> Should Listseve be that 'outward facing' space? Isn't and  
>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>> LISTSERVE be something more intimate and personal, but provide the
>>>>> platform for individuals to launch themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>> ROger
>>>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:01, Frank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it was John Warfield that spoke of context, content and  
>>>>>> process. So which comes first?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will the content determine the context and process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will the context determine the content and process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will the process determine the content and context?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As regards a new Listserv, could it be a place where everything  
>>>>>> is discussed in clear English? The reason being that in order  
>>>>>> to   succeed in this project we need to be able to attract  
>>>>>> businessmen  at  all levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "BARRY A CLEMSON" <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:04 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Toward a viable economy #2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The big question is “how do we get cybernetic control systems  
>>>>>> into  the
>>>>>> discussion for reforming the world financial system?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of us, me too, have been pretty much wringing our hands  
>>>>>> “woe is
>>>>>> me” I don’t know how to get anybody to listen. Enough of that   
>>>>>> crap. I
>>>>>> don’t want to have to tell my grandchildren that I didn’t try.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need to systematically see whom we can recruit to build  
>>>>>> support  for
>>>>>> this effort. There are two different levels of support we can  
>>>>>> ask  for:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) the world needs management cybernetics, or, as a fall-back   
>>>>>> position
>>>>>> 2) the insights of cybernetics/systems/feedback loops provide   
>>>>>> powerful
>>>>>> tools for designing regulatory systems that would be far  
>>>>>> superior to
>>>>>> what we have now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clearly we would like people to stand up and say we need  
>>>>>> management
>>>>>> cybernetics. But there are a lot of super-stars out there  
>>>>>> (Russell
>>>>>> Ackoff, Peter Senge, Jay Forrester, John Warfield) who will   
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> support the second and that would be a big step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have at least a couple of months before people start seriously
>>>>>> thinking about what sort of controls should be put into place  
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> global financial system. For at least a few months everyone  
>>>>>> will be
>>>>>> too busy trying to put out fires to even think about a new  
>>>>>> control
>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Crises bring out both the best and worst in people. Therefore,   
>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>> for the best, I think we should try to think of superstars that  
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> might possibly enlist in our campaign. The worst that will  
>>>>>> happen is
>>>>>> that they will say no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been out of academia for ten years so I am woefully out of
>>>>>> date, but here is my initial brainstorm of people we should try  
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> enlist:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russell Ackoff
>>>>>> Peter Senge
>>>>>> Jay Forrester
>>>>>> Jay Forrester, Jr, some years back was head of research for a  
>>>>>> big  oil
>>>>>> company and was doing System Dynamics for them
>>>>>> Chuck Keating, former president of Engineering Management  
>>>>>> Society  and
>>>>>> my PhD student and later my colleague.
>>>>>> Bill Reckmeyer has lots of contacts all over the place
>>>>>> John Sutherland
>>>>>> Stuart Umpleby has a very effective laid back style that  
>>>>>> encourages
>>>>>> people to try new things and Stuart is in DC
>>>>>> Gordon Pask’s old contacts in the US military
>>>>>> Warren Buffet (yes, that Buffet)
>>>>>> George Soros (was once supportive of Friedman and later became
>>>>>> critical of him)
>>>>>> Paul Krugman, nobel laureate in Economics and NYTimes columnist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I have a couple of suggestions for your consideration  
>>>>>> (please
>>>>>> improve upon all of this – I consider everything I have said  
>>>>>> here  as a
>>>>>> starting point that I hope the rest of you will chew up and   
>>>>>> improve).
>>>>>> That said, I suggest:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - a new list serve dedicated to trying to 1) get these ideas  
>>>>>> into  the
>>>>>> conversation and 2) designing the outlines of a new control  
>>>>>> system
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - everyone of us should brainstorm possible allies to get the  
>>>>>> ideas
>>>>>> considered. Then we should all help think about how to contact  
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> people. For instance, I know Ackoff but haven’t spoken to him  
>>>>>> in  more
>>>>>> than 20 years so I am unlikely to be the best one to approach  
>>>>>> him).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, boy. Fear and trembling. I feel like Gandalf confronting the
>>>>>> balrog: "I'm already tired"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ===================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 757-692-6673
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in  
>>>>>> it.... Do
>>>>>> small things with great love."
>>>>>>       --- Mother Teresa ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>>>>> --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>>>>>  -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>>>>>>      -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
>>>>>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 22:27:18
>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
>>>>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 23:17:51
>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
>>> Tested on: 04/12/2008 19:21:03
>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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