I've just come across the responses of Boris and Barry, but will send
You may have missed some of the discussions on your points in the past.
The at times over focus on SB is because, historically speaking,
metaphorum was set up to take forward and disseminate his ideas. The
sometimes skewed effect of this on the forum is something I am trying
to address through wiki space. though when Luc and others set it up,
wiki was an experiment in communications/discussions etc, as LISTSERVE
sometimes got overwhelmed.
I think your actual questions are very relevant
a. Where doesn't it apply:
I'm not sure if I have interpreted your question properly, but there
surely HAS TO BE a statement/understanding of what the model is NOT
about - in other words, it's domain of relevant application. There has
been some discussion around this, or perhaps it's more accurate to
say, that there appear to be two extremes:
1. the VSM is relevant for everything;
2. it has to be part of a general tool kit made up of other streams of
I think that 1. is a nonsense and doesn't do the model or Stafford's
reputation any favours.
In point 2, the most widely referred 'other tools/ways of thinking'
are Checkland's SSM (though I note and agree with Barry's point about
Ackoff). It is interesting to note that t is rarely braided to other
aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once more, this is something I feel
the wiki or something similar might start to address.
Another good one. I gather that Ralf-Eckhard Turke is doing
interesting stuff here. I read his dissertation and was impressed by
how he was braiding it to the thought of others, and I think Luc
mentioned that he doing new stuff. I'm trying to get him to engage in
Metaphorum. i',m sure various individuals are involved in various
projects where VSM is being used, and it would be valuable for such
work to be posted, even if it was just a summary. So we all can
benefit from a feeling that it is a LIVING tradition 9some of you who
are involved in projects - that's a nudge!)
c. Your third would seem to refer to reporting. As we all know to our
costs, depending on the academic dissemination process (refereed
journals) is the death of a living tradition. What would be valuable
is an on-line space in which individuals feel confident about talking
about projects in a non-academic way, a way that invites inclusion and
commentary. Once more, this might be easily achieved ina wiki or
d. I'm not sure about your last point. Where would you suppose that
the model does apply??
On 2 Dec 2008, at 07:36, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
> Like many others that responded thus far, I'm interested and try to do
> some collaborative work at time.
> One thing worries me and that is the - at times - almost
> fundamentalistic focus on Stafford. A few questions:
> * Where doesn't Staffords work apply?
> * What progress have other made in the meantime.
> * What of that work can we integrate to make more VSM ideas readable
> todays terms.
> * Isn't VSM used outside its validity boundaries when applied to
> (Stafford failed there)
> And the most vital one:
> * How do we achieve 200,000+ page views a day on the wiki?
> One suggestion: find better names (and use them) for S1-S5. Nobody
> understand that for a long, long time.
> This work is in dear need of newbies. So go and wiki!
> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Roger Harnden
>> Sent: maandag 1 december 2008 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: is there anyone out there????
>> Is anyone interested in the wiki??? I know the few who are,
>> but how about others?? Or is it just not of interest; is it a
>> pile of shit; is it irrelevant to other people's needs; is it
>> difficult to engage in??????
>> Best wishes,
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>> go to: www.platformforchange.org
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
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