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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: is there anyone out there????

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:20:01 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (162 lines)

Harold,

I've just come across the responses of Boris and Barry, but will send  
this anyway.

You may have missed some of the discussions on your points in the past.

The at times over focus on SB is because, historically speaking,  
metaphorum was set up to take forward and disseminate his ideas. The  
sometimes skewed effect of this on the forum is something I am trying  
to address through wiki space. though when Luc and others set it up,  
wiki was an experiment in communications/discussions etc, as LISTSERVE  
sometimes got overwhelmed.

I think your actual questions are very relevant

a. Where doesn't it apply:

I'm not sure if I have interpreted your question properly, but there  
surely HAS TO BE a statement/understanding of what the model is NOT  
about - in other words, it's domain of relevant application. There has  
been some discussion around this, or perhaps it's more accurate to  
say, that there appear to be two extremes:
1.	the VSM is relevant for everything;
2.	it has to be part of a general tool kit made up of other streams of  
thinking.

I think that 1. is a nonsense and doesn't do the model or Stafford's  
reputation any favours.
In point 2, the most widely referred 'other tools/ways of thinking'  
are Checkland's SSM (though I note and agree with Barry's point about  
Ackoff). It is interesting to note that t is rarely braided to other  
aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once more, this is something I feel  
the wiki or something similar might start to address.

b. Progress:

Another good one. I gather that Ralf-Eckhard Turke is doing  
interesting stuff here. I read his dissertation and was impressed by  
how he was braiding it to the thought of others, and I think Luc  
mentioned that he doing new stuff. I'm trying to get him to engage in  
Metaphorum.  i',m sure various individuals are involved in various  
projects where VSM is being used, and it would be valuable for such  
work to be posted, even if it was just a summary. So we all can  
benefit from a feeling that it is a LIVING tradition 9some of you who  
are involved in projects - that's a nudge!)

c. Your third would seem to refer to reporting. As we all know to our  
costs, depending on the academic dissemination process (refereed  
journals) is the death of a living tradition. What would be valuable  
is  an on-line space in which individuals feel confident about talking  
about projects in a non-academic way, a way that invites inclusion and  
commentary. Once more, this might be easily achieved ina wiki or  
similar space.

d. I'm not sure about your last point. Where would you suppose that  
the model does apply??

Best wishes,

Roger


On 2 Dec 2008, at 07:36, Garderen, Harold van wrote:

> Like many others that responded thus far, I'm interested and try to do
> some collaborative work at time.
>
> One thing worries me and that is the - at times - almost
> fundamentalistic focus on Stafford. A few questions:
>
> * Where doesn't Staffords work apply?
> * What progress have other made in the meantime.
> * What of that work can we integrate to make more VSM ideas readable  
> in
> todays terms.
> * Isn't VSM used outside its validity boundaries when applied to  
> society
> (Stafford failed there)
>
> And the most vital one:
>
> * How do we achieve 200,000+ page views a day on the wiki?
>
> One suggestion: find better names (and use them) for S1-S5. Nobody  
> will
> understand that for a long, long time.
>
> This work is in dear need of newbies. So go and wiki!
>
> Harold
>
> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Roger Harnden
>> Sent: maandag 1 december 2008 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: is there anyone out there????
>>
>> Is anyone interested in the wiki??? I know the few who are,
>> but how about others?? Or is it just not of interest; is it a
>> pile of shit; is it irrelevant to other people's needs; is it
>> difficult to engage in??????
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>
> This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the  
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged,  
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>
> If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible  
> for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are  
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of  
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> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the  
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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