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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:16:05 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (234 lines)

Dear All,

I think Patrick has made good points about ethical stance being profoundly affected by the level or recursion. This can be so even among people who share basic values if one's particular perspective on the situation is different.

Stafford was concerned that people might use his work for ends that he would find unacceptable.  However, there was little practical evidence that this was so.  People who approached him who wanted to apply the VSM did not all have values that matched his - e.g. corporations - but were likely to be among the ones more open to openness and (relatively) progressive policies. 

What I think should also be of concern is the removal of many decisions from the ethical domain and the dependance of many of the world's transactions on exchange practices that disallow considerations other than short term financial gain.  I think judgmental agreement is more difficult to apply here than to the practice of torture.

Best, 
Allenna


--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Wright, Steve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Wright, Steve <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 11:55 AM
> Patrick - brilliant and yet re 5 - I would normally agree
> but this time
> this is where the howls of initial protest came from.
> Servicemen  who
> had the disc of photographs made them public domain.
> Arguably without
> this initiative we might be none the wiser and the critical
> mass of
> revulsion would not have been formed.
>  
> Activists like Brian martin seek to use a form of political
> jiu jitsu to
> create outrage when less powerful political groups attempt
> to call
> larger goliath entities to account. At some stage it is
> worth
> analysising these conflict dynamics since timing and the
> right choice of
> tactic to apply ethics make the difference as does
> prepartion for
> nahding the inevitable counter response.
> Steve
> 
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Patrick
> Hoverstadt
> 	Sent: 04 December 2008 16:47
> 	To: [log in to unmask]
> 	Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> 	
> 	
> 
> 	The answer to your question Roger is "Durrh
> yeah!" And in VSM
> terms. Because:
> 
> 	1.    VSM is recursively structured with the different
> levels
> operating at different levels of logical concern - in other
> words, they
> are concerned with different aspects or horizons of
> viability in their
> environments. So
> 
> 	2.    as you go up levels of recursion, you see that what
> appears to be viable behaviour at one level of recursion
> destroys /
> undermines the viability of the systems within which it is
> embedded (or
> vice-versa) So
> 
> 	3.    what we see as "ethical" or
> "moral" considerations are
> precisely the viewing of behaviour at one level of
> recursion from the
> standpoint of a different level, from which vantage point
> it can be seen
> as "bad" (threatening viability). So
> 
> 	4.    Your argument or hypothesis would stand up IF we
> only
> accepted the bounded logic of each recursion as being the
> only relevant
> logic frame - which is contradicted by SB's Recursive
> System Theorem. 
> 
> 	5.    SO test it in the real world - do the howls of
> protest
> come from the same level of recursion as runs guantanamo?
> No they don't,
> they come from levels above (world community) and levels
> below
> (concerned citizenry) and lurking somewhere in the
> rationality /
> emotionality of both is the knowledge that it is
> destructive to their
> viability at their level of recursion.  
> 
> 	6.    SO VSM / recursive thinking  can be seen as the
> structural
> underpinning of reasoned ethical concern. 
> 
> 	This follows an interaction with Allenna,
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Models may well be neutral, but social systems aren't.
> Some are
> geared  
> 
> 	to torture individuals prior to any legal process in
> places like
> 
> 
> 	Guatanamo Bay; others are geared to support the
> vulnerable.
> These two  
> 
> 	social forms are DIFFERENT and loaded with VALUES.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	 From the standpoint of the US administration (as is made
> clear
> from  
> 
> 	the very recent confessions of the ex-interrogator), a
> 'more  
> 
> 	effective' Guatanamo Bay would process the captives in
>  way that
> helps  
> 
> 	deliver to the US administration its requirement to
> justify the
> rape a  
> 
> 	sovereign country n the pursuit of its own economic and
> political  
> 
> 	advantage. And, should one of us have been so
> 'lucky' as to be  
> 
> 	approached by the then US administration, i am sure we
> could
> readily  
> 
> 	apply the VSM to achieve that goal.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Therefore, might we not ask 'Is there any reason why
> the members
> of  
> 
> 	this community (Metaphorum) would not accept that
> job?'
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Well, is there?????
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Roger
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 	 
> 
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> 
> 	 
> 
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> 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

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