So, to follow Javier.....I would speculate that there is a limit
condition to accepting a contract to apply VSM.
That is should the client manifestly not be interested in increasing
the autonomy of the individuals - for instancem in the Third Reich
(but also in many other instances). Because - I would hypothesise -
application of VSM does not intrinsically carry increased individual
autonomy within it.
But, the more important point which prompted my question, was that a
practising community (namely Metaphorum) seems to feel it is morally
neutral. I feel that it would be a strength, not a weakness, to
identify application of VSM with a particular weltanschauung and nail
this to the mast. i am not sure that this is obvious for the outside
world. So, for instance - re the financial crisis. What is the moral
imperative for tackling the banking system with a model such as VSM?
Because, Javier, your answer doesn;'t answer that, though for myself,
your answer is fine.
On 4 Dec 2008, at 16:30, Javier Livas wrote:
> Yes, Roger, there is a reason not to cooperate with them:
> Because if we are supporting the VSM is because it too has a set of
> values or PRINCIPLES in which we believe and one of them is the
> belief that to have viability we need "maximum autonomy" which can
> be translated into the "right to self-determine" that individuals
> have. It is not to extreme to affirm that the VSM basically believes
> in human rights as contained in several international agreements
> which are THE LAW inside the adopting countries.
> My best,
> Javier Livas
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:
>> This follows an interaction with Allenna,
>> Models may well be neutral, but social systems aren't. Some are
>> geared to torture individuals prior to any legal process in places
>> like Guatanamo Bay; others are geared to support the vulnerable.
>> These two social forms are DIFFERENT and loaded with VALUES.
>> From the standpoint of the US administration (as is made clear from
>> the very recent confessions of the ex-interrogator), a 'more
>> effective' Guatanamo Bay would process the captives in way that
>> helps deliver to the US administration its requirement to justify
>> the rape a sovereign country n the pursuit of its own economic and
>> political advantage. And, should one of us have been so 'lucky' as
>> to be approached by the then US administration, i am sure we could
>> readily apply the VSM to achieve that goal.
>> Therefore, might we not ask 'Is there any reason why the members of
>> this community (Metaphorum) would not accept that job?'
>> Well, is there?????
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html