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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: Toward a viable economy #2

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:15:50 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (167 lines)

Frank

Should Listseve be that 'outward facing' space? Isn't and shouldn't  
LISTSERVE be something more intimate and personal, but provide the  
platform for individuals to launch themselves?

ROger
On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:01, Frank wrote:

> I think it was John Warfield that spoke of context, content and  
> process. So which comes first?
>
> Will the content determine the context and process?
>
> Will the context determine the content and process?
>
> Will the process determine the content and context?
>
> As regards a new Listserv, could it be a place where everything is  
> discussed in clear English? The reason being that in order to  
> succeed in this project we need to be able to attract businessmen at  
> all levels.
>
> Regards
>
> Frank
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "BARRY A CLEMSON" <[log in to unmask] 
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:04 PM
> Subject: Toward a viable economy #2
>
>
> The big question is “how do we get cybernetic control systems into the
> discussion for reforming the world financial system?”
>
> All of us, me too, have been pretty much wringing our hands “woe is
> me” I don’t know how to get anybody to listen. Enough of that crap. I
> don’t want to have to tell my grandchildren that I didn’t try.
>
> We need to systematically see whom we can recruit to build support for
> this effort. There are two different levels of support we can ask for:
>
> 1) the world needs management cybernetics, or, as a fall-back position
> 2) the insights of cybernetics/systems/feedback loops provide powerful
> tools for designing regulatory systems that would be far superior to
> what we have now.
>
> Clearly we would like people to stand up and say we need management
> cybernetics. But there are a lot of super-stars out there (Russell
> Ackoff, Peter Senge, Jay Forrester, John Warfield) who will certainly
> support the second and that would be a big step.
>
> We have at least a couple of months before people start seriously
> thinking about what sort of controls should be put into place on the
> global financial system. For at least a few months everyone will be
> too busy trying to put out fires to even think about a new control
> system.
>
> Crises bring out both the best and worst in people. Therefore, hoping
> for the best, I think we should try to think of superstars that we
> might possibly enlist in our campaign. The worst that will happen is
> that they will say no.
>
> I have been out of academia for ten years so I am woefully out of
> date, but here is my initial brainstorm of people we should try to
> enlist:
>
> Russell Ackoff
> Peter Senge
> Jay Forrester
> Jay Forrester, Jr, some years back was head of research for a big oil
> company and was doing System Dynamics for them
> Chuck Keating, former president of Engineering Management Society and
> my PhD student and later my colleague.
> Bill Reckmeyer has lots of contacts all over the place
> John Sutherland
> Stuart Umpleby has a very effective laid back style that encourages
> people to try new things and Stuart is in DC
> Gordon Pask’s old contacts in the US military
> Warren Buffet (yes, that Buffet)
> George Soros (was once supportive of Friedman and later became
> critical of him)
> Paul Krugman, nobel laureate in Economics and NYTimes columnist
>
> Now, I have a couple of suggestions for your consideration (please
> improve upon all of this – I consider everything I have said here as a
> starting point that I hope the rest of you will chew up and improve).
> That said, I suggest:
>
> - a new list serve dedicated to trying to 1) get these ideas into the
> conversation and 2) designing the outlines of a new control system
>
> - everyone of us should brainstorm possible allies to get the ideas
> considered. Then we should all help think about how to contact these
> people. For instance, I know Ackoff but haven’t spoken to him in more
> than 20 years so I am unlikely to be the best one to approach him).
>
> Barry
>
> Oh, boy. Fear and trembling. I feel like Gandalf confronting the
> balrog: "I'm already tired"
>
> ===================================================
>
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 757-692-6673
>
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>
>
>
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do
> small things with great love."
>            --- Mother Teresa ---
>
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>
>
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>           -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ---
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>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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