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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: Toward a viable economy

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:57:21 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (275 lines)

Dear All,

Yes we can/yes we should.  But let's follow the pioneer cyberneticians, (very much including Stafford) and look to nature.  We don't want 'one' control system - we need to look for coordinations of coordinations where we can have social micro to macro climates that blend into one another.

Above all, we need to look for practical ways to increase autonomy in smaller scale enterprise.  It is an artifact that big box stores can use economies of scale to drive out local producers. The NAFTA agreement's unfortunate effects on Mexican subsistence farming are a good example.

Best,
Allenna 

Allenna


--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Javier Livas <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Javier Livas <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Toward a viable economy
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 5:23 PM
> Barry, and friends,
> 
> A question is: Do we have a model or an approximation of
> the current  
> system and why it failed. We do not have to go into great
> detail to  
> solve this, do we? It seems it has been designed as a
> fedforward  
> system that eventually runs out of energy $. If we could
> describe the  
> current system and why it failed, then we could suggest how
> to make a  
> better one.
> 
> Javier Livas
> 
> On Dec 3, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Stephen Davies wrote:
> 
> > Hi Barry,
> >
> > Excellent rant!  I totally get your point and your
> passion.  I also
> > appreciate your willingness to step up to this massive
> challenge.
> >
> > You say..."No one else other than cyberneticians
> has a clue about  
> > how to
> > build a proper control system for the world's
> economy. And more
> > specifically, those cyberneticians who have studied
> and built upon
> > Stafford's work have a better framework for this
> work than anyone else
> > in the world."
> >
> > This is an audacious claim and may be overstated as a
> result of the
> > residual energy from the rant, but I want to explore
> the basis of the
> > claim.
> >
> > Surely the world economy is a system of systems (on a
> massive scale)  
> > and
> > is not reducible to a single control system.  One of
> the challenging
> > things I find about Cybernetics is that at root is it
> a theory of
> > ordered control and is challenging to apply in complex
> adaptive  
> > domains
> > where order emerges as a function of the rules of
> engagement that are
> > negotiated by the agents.  (Clearly, once those rules
> are then made,  
> > the
> > agents typically game the rule set and secondary and
> tertiary sets of
> > behaviour then emerge!)
> >
> > In the case of the world economy, perhaps Cybernetics
> could set the
> > frame (i.e. provide the rules for making the rules) as
> guidance for  
> > the
> > self-generation of local control rules by distributed
> system agents?
> >
> > So, I guess for me it's still a big question as to
> whether "we" can
> > design a much improved control system (in the singular
> sense).
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of BARRY A
> > CLEMSON
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:00 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Toward a viable economy
> >
> > Milton Friedman (evil man that he was) got one thing
> right: When there
> > is a crisis, the ideas at hand will be the ones to be
> used.
> >
> > Friedman and his Chicago School of Economics used this
> insight to very
> > nearly conquer the world. And they did it with ideas
> that, to a
> > cybernetician, are idiotic. Further, to anyone with
> compassion for
> > their fellow humans, the results were uniformly evil.
> >
> > Friedman's core ideas seemed to be that freedom
> and totally
> > unfettered, pure capitalism are identical. The
> prescription for
> > governments was to de-regulate everything, privatize
> everything
> > including most of the core functions of government,
> and massively cut
> > government spending in all areas of social programs.
> The results were
> > always to enormously enrich the already wealthy elite,
> destroy the
> > middle class, and drive huge numbers into the
> permanently unemployable
> > desperately poor. They were able to implement this
> program all over
> > the world by pouncing on crises, including most
> recently New Orleans
> > after Katrina and the reconstruction in Iraq.
> >
> > Oops, sorry, I am digressing into a rant about
> Friedman, when all I
> > really wanted to do was to suggest that we use his
> insight about the
> > ideas at hand being used in a crisis.
> >
> > No one else other than cyberneticians has a clue about
> how to build a
> > proper control system for the world's economy. And
> more specifically,
> > those cyberneticians who have studied and built upon
> Stafford's work
> > have a better framework for this work than anyone else
> in the world.
> > God help us, that means Roger and Javier and Stefan
> and Allenna and
> > Russell and even me (and all the rest of you on this
> list that I don't
> > yet know!).
> >
> > There! I said it!
> >
> > Stafford said that responsibility comes with
> knowledge, so its really
> > in our lap.
> >
> > The big question is not whether we can design a much
> improved control
> > system. The big question is how do we get anybody to
> listen to us, how
> > do we get our ideas to where they are lying around to
> be picked up by
> > the Obama administratiion?
> >
> > I don't yet know the answer to this question, but
> I think we better
> > get to brainstorming on it.
> >
> > I am going to go do a little internet research on a
> few potential
> > leads and will get back to you later.
> >
> > Grace and Peace (we're going to need it!)
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ===================================================
> >
> > BARRY A CLEMSON
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > 757-692-6673
> >
> > Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
> >
> >
> >
> > "It's not how much you do - it's how much
> love you put in it.... Do
> > small things with great love."
> >             --- Mother Teresa ---
> >
> > The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be
> defeated.
> >    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> >
> > And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
> >        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> >
> >
> > "An enemy is a person whose story we have not
> heard."
> >            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to:
> > www.platformforchange.org
> >
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> >
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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