LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: VSM4Business

From:

Frank <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:49:16 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (694 lines)

Hi Steve,
it would be nice to get some managers on this list for their view. Some 
people say that Cybernetics can only be described in its own language. I 
disagree and even Stafford Beer did emphasise the importance of 
communication. If people have to learn some sort of rareified language in 
order to understand Cybernetics, then most simply won't do that and who 
could blame them?

Frank


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Morlidge" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: VSM4Business


> Hi All,
>
> A couple of observations from someone who spends rather too much time
> thinking about/working on trying to get difficult ideas (including the 
> VSM)
> into mainstream management consciousness. In particular, I am thinking 
> that
> what we are grappling with is a problem of managerial cybernetics so, if 
> we
> believe the ideas are worth promoting to others, we should use managerial
> cybernetics ourselves.
>
> First, it strikes me that the issue of 'what to call the VSM' issue is a
> transduction problem. Practical managers are not operating at the same 
> level
> of recursion as ourselves, therefore we would expect to use a different
> language with them. This is not about dishonouring Stafford or his
> magnificent work - it is a cybernetic inevitability. It seems to me 
> however,
> that ' a different language' is not a simple issue of semantics or using
> different words to describe the same things. Rather it seems to me that we
> might have to structure the ideas differently for a different audience. 
> The
> problem reminds me of one's experience of progressing through the grades 
> at
> school. Up to a certain point you were drilled in one mode of think about
> say, physics, then once you had passed the exams you were told 'forget all
> that stuff about x - it isn't 'true' - here's how to think about it'. 
> Quite
> what form this simplified systems model might take I don't know. Perhaps 
> we
> might organise what we know around the problems that managers recognise or
> something like that (on the basis that you can only sell a cure to a 
> disease
> that people recognise that they have). Ideas anyone?
>
> The second point builds on my earlier contribution about Beers ideas being
> 'too complete' and Barry's response to it. What we want to do is to grow 
> our
> community/the ideas we believe in. Well growth is all about positive
> feedback, whereas Barry quite rightly pointed out that working on the VSM 
> as
> an academic generated negative feedback (work more on this stuff and 
> reduce
> your academic prospects). So the issue is - whether it is about growing 
> the
> ideas with managers or academics - how do we create/nourish positive
> feedback loops? In layman's language 'create win-wins'.
>
> A Happy Cyberxmas to you all!
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of allenna leonard
> Sent: 22 December 2008 02:35
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>
> Dear All,
>
> 'Viable' has the advantage of being a more general term than, say,
> profitable.  There is nothing wrong with other terms but they also carry
> their specific contexts. 'Viable' also invites analogies with other living
> systems.
>
> Allenna
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/21/08, Joseph Truss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> From: Joseph Truss <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 7:35 PM
>> I think the currency of Bush and others using it overweighs
>> the degradation which will only occur with people who
>> already know what viability means.  If we jump on it now we
>> might beat the crowd. 'the viable business' so far
>> has the simplest most direct message for the business
>> audience.
>>
>>  Joseph Truss
>> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 3:27:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>>
>>
>> "Viable" does get to the core but unfortunately
>> people like Bush are degrading the word.
>>
>> Frank
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: BARRY  A CLEMSON
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:03  PM
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>> I have been silent on this question of language because i
>> haven't had anything helpful to say, but I do feel the
>> word "viable" is the  best that i have heard.
>> Perhaps viable system model is not good, but i really  think
>> "viable" gets at the core idea.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Joseph Truss wrote:
>>
>> I've  noticed in the past few days that the terms
>> viable and viability are being  used by George Bush and the
>> CEO's of the Big Three Automakers. The industry  is now
>> on a path to 'viability' based on the $14B - $17B
>> bailout approved  yesterday in the US.
>>
>> How about simply:  the viable business or  the viable
>> enterprise
>>
>> Alvin Toffler also used the term 'adaptive
>> corporation'
>>
>>  Joseph Truss
>> Abbey North Drummers /  Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 7:36:31  AM
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>>
>>
>> Thanks for this  Arthur.
>>
>> Business Brain might indeed  appeal to managers etc.
>>
>> Frank
>> ----- Original Message  -----
>> From: Arthur Dijkstra
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:53  AM
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>>
>> How  about
>> Organisational  Brain
>> Or
>> Business  Brain
>> Or
>> Corporate  Brain
>>
>> Arthur
>>
>> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of  Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Joseph
>> Truss
>> Verzonden: vrijdag 19 december 2008  16:46
>> Aan: [log in to unmask]
>> Onderwerp: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> 'Operational  sustainability'
>> 'The viability of  business - the business of
>> viability'
>> 'Adaptability,  sustainability, viability'
>>
>> "Add Beer to your  bottom line!"
>>
>>
>> Joseph  Truss
>> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity  AG
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Paul Stokes <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:35:32  AM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>> Well I'm using  'Sustainable Ops' or
>> 'Sustainable Operations', if that's of any use
>> to you  folks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ----- Original  Message -----
>> From: Joseph
>> Truss
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:24  AM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> Frank is that  the BOTTOM line? We do need a spanking good
>> phrase!
>>
>> Joseph  Truss
>> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity  AG
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Frank <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008  8:00:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: VSM4Business
>> Lol  or
>>
>> Reaches the  Parts that Beer Reaches.
>> ----- Original  Message -----
>> From: Boris G Freesman,  Q.C.
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008  11:12 PM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> FREE  BEER?
>>
>> Boris
>>
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: Frank
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008  6:04 PM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> Hmm yes but  it doesn't get across the idea of an
>> organisation being able to  sense internal imbalace and
>> being able to self correct so to  speak in the light of
>> knowledge of new external conditions. Thanks  btw for all
>> this and sorry for being such a pain.
>>
>> I need a  title that instantly draws in the
>> businessman/manager etc. Someone  who is suffering in a
>> dysfunctional organisation who will go, "Wow,  I must
>> find out more about this!" when he reads the title of
>> the  wikispace. The title of course has to reflect very
>> pithilly what VSM  is all about.
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: Roger  Harnden
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 18,  2008 10:46 PM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> 'Organisational  viability'.
>>
>> Roger
>> On  18 Dec 2008, at 22:22, Frank wrote:
>>
>>
>> That's  one possibility except businessmen might just
>> say "yeh, yeh,  another fad". It also doesn't
>> address the (how I see it) kernel of  VSM that it's all
>> about organisations being aware that something  is wrong and
>> then responding in a corrective manner. Homeostasis  of a
>> sort, I suppose with a dollop of coevolution. Or maybe
>> I've  got it all wrong.
>>
>> I'm  rereading Brain of the Firm and it's
>> interesting how other things  now jump out of the page so to
>> speak.
>>
>> Frank
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: Roger  Harnden
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday,  December 18, 2008 10:03 PM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> What's  wrong with Stafford's 'science of
>> effective  organisation'?
>>
>> Roger
>> On  18 Dec 2008, at 21:42, Frank wrote:
>>
>>
>> Oops  I forgot! Yeh I think Viable Systems Model is about
>> as  charismatic as
>> cold rice  pudding.
>>
>> Hmm lets see. Some possible wikispace  titles
>>
>> Making Your Organisation Response - Able. (Not  strictly
>> VSM but a hook
>> nonetheless.)
>>
>> The  Self Aware Organisation (More on VSM lines but a
>> little too sci  fi?)
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: Holtham,  Clive
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday,  December 18, 2008 6:44 PM
>> Subject: Re:  VSM4Business
>>
>> I think the term VSM is to be  avoided at all costs
>> upfront!
>> Why not make the title  something more
>> neutral/inspirational/controversial?
>> Professor  Clive Holtham
>> [log in to unmask]
>> phone:  +44-20-7040-8622 fax: +44-20-7040-8328
>> video:  +44-20-7786-9674
>> Short  CV:
>> http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/c.w.holtham/holthamcv.htm
>> Map: http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/about/location/index.html
>> Cass Business School, City of  London,  106 Bunhill Row,
>> LONDON EC1Y 8TZ
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Frank  [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: 16 December 2008  21:44
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: VSM4Business
>> Everyone,
>> I  really like VSM4Business but I don't think I can
>> change the  title of the Wiki because it will affect the
>> URL.
>>
>> So  I have two options:
>>
>> 1)  Scrap the existing VSMforbusiness and start with new
>> titel.  Fairly easy as not much has been done yet
>>
>> 2)  Leave it but refer to the Wiki as VSM4Business in any
>> emails  etc. Problem is that it could be confusing.
>>
>> I  think I'll go for option 1 unless anyone has any
>> ideas. I'll  leave a decision until tomorrow.
>>
>> Frank
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList  Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM  eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 081218-0,  18/12/2008
>> Tested on: 18/12/2008 21:38:21
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL  Software.
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList  Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM  eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList  Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus  Database (VPS): 081218-0, 18/12/2008
>> Tested on: 18/12/2008  22:16:34
>> avast!  - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList  Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus  Database (VPS): 081218-0, 18/12/2008
>> Tested on: 18/12/2008  22:55:08
>> avast! - copyright (c)  1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at
>> -https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus  Database (VPS): 081218-0, 18/12/2008
>> Tested on: 18/12/2008  23:35:58
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008  ALWIL Software.
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Ask  a question on any topic and get answers from real
>> people. Go to  Yahoo!
>> Answers.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative  Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList available  at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Be  smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
>> junk email the  boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative  Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList available  at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus  Database (VPS): 081219-0, 19/12/2008
>> Tested on: 20/12/2008  12:59:18
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL  Software.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative  Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList available  at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative  Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
>>  at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available  at -
>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ________________________________
>>  Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of  Flickr!
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative  Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
>>  at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available  at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love
>> you put in it.... Do small  things with great love."
>>             --- Mother Teresa  ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>
>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos  5:24--
>>
>> "An enemy is a person whose story we  have not
>> heard."
>>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman  --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> avast!  Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 081219-0,  19/12/2008
>> Tested on: 21/12/2008 21:02:51
>> avast! -  copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum  Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org  METAPHORUM eList Archive
>> available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of
>> CYBCOM eList  available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
>> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
>> at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> Reclaim your name @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com. Get your
>> new email address now! Go to
>> http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 081222-0, 22/12/2008
> Tested on: 23/12/2008 21:59:20
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager