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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers

From:

Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:17:55 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (291 lines)

If escalating timed alerts through management is already in place Luc's 
approach is better. Certainly interpret in terms of what he knows (if you 
can estimate that- is he a personnel guy, an accountant, engineer or pilot) 
but 5 mins may not mean a "social chat" is either required or appreciated 
and may be resisted. But inessential variables are essential for resilience 
as a check on authenticity of data and guide to feasible development. We are 
talking "redundancy" of data here but care with that word.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Luc Hoebeke" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers


> Dear Arthur,
>
> Get in contact with what concerns the CEO personally, what he is
> afraid of and avoid to talk in the third person singular or plural:
> it, he, them, they are escape words. And the idea to be really well
> informed about what maters to him can help to start a relevant
> discussion about the "essential variables" on his level, with his
> direct stakeholders. How does it come that the KLM is full of agile
> and resilient people and the organizatio is not? Because it is
> organized that way. The purpose of the system is what it does.
>
> Success and until we SKYPE,
>
> Luc
>
>
> Op 13-dec-08, om 11:37 heeft Arthur Dijkstra het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Dear all,
>> In conveying the benefits of cybernetics and VSM we have to consider
>> manager's constraints like lack of time and limited background for
>> these concepts, but loads of experiences that could be related to
>> VSM and cybernetics. (Luc is especially good at this(and many other
>> things as well...)).
>> Pictures, next to spoken and written text, have an enormous
>> explanatory power. So I want to propose to jointly develop pictures,
>> diagrams, figures etc. These could range from simple high level low
>> detail to high detail low level concepts. The usage will depends on
>> the audience, time and interest.
>>
>> This coming Monday morning I will have 5 mins with the CEO. You can
>> imagine the turmoil he is in, in international aviation.
>> I want to get his attention, and interest that would result in a
>> longer meeting allowing to tell more. The CEO has expressed a desire
>> for 'agility' and 'resilience'. I want to connect on those interest.
>> Recursion, autonomy and cohesion and the  way these could be managed
>> are important aspects to explain, not in words but in diagrams.
>>
>> I will work on this, but maybe you have done already this. Lets
>> share them and put them on the wikispace.
>>
>> What would you suggest that I present to my CEO in these 5 minutes ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Arthur
>>
>>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> ] Namens Leonid Ototsky
>> Verzonden: woensdag 10 december 2008 21:06
>> Aan: [log in to unmask]
>> Onderwerp: Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers
>>
>> Frank,
>> Thanks for the "Straw Dogs" reference.
>>> From my point of view there are some good thoughts and
>> some wrong thoughts in this book. The good ones are that humans are
>> just
>> another species and we cannot control our destiny. The wrong ones
>> are that
>> there is no such thing as progress. Every biologist knows that there
>> is
>> progress in evolution, that most recent developments are most
>> advanced.
>> This is the theory of Severtsov and Shmalhauzen (in Russia). The
>> progress
>> is in the increased complexity and functional repertoire of organisms.
>> Human history also shows examples of progressive social evolution.
>> It's
>> not all straight-forward, but the trend is obvious. Human society is
>> far
>> from being ideal but it is better than it was.
>> Suppose the VSM is "a Progress Oriented" too .
>>
>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>
>>> Dear Leonid,
>>> yes businesses should be aware of those global problems that impact
>>> on
>>> them.
>>> However I'm a bit wary of the missionary zeal that is becoming
>>> apparent on
>>> this list as regards "changing the world".
>>>
>>> I'm suspicous of the visionary trap and many brilliant thinkers
>>> succumb to
>>> it. I'll read book x and think wow this is good stuff, however many
>>> times
>>> the book is marred by the ending chapter(s) describing the author's
>>> vision
>>> for a better world.
>>>
>>> For those that feel that might be susceptible to this, I recommend
>>> John
>>> Gray's "Straw Dogs" a brilliant polemic on (I suppose) Humanism..
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straw-Dogs-Thoughts-Humans-Animals/dp/1862075964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228782266&sr=1-1
>>>
>>> I agree with you that the bottom up approach is best. I'd be
>>> tempted to
>>> work
>>> at the lowest level and see what emerges, rather than try and change
>>> global
>>> insitutions directly.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Leonid Ototsky" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Selling Cybernetics to Business and Managers
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Frank,
>>> Suppose the time has come for business people to understand global
>>> problems which may effect them . It is not only global financial
>>> problems
>>> but many others (look at my presentation to the WOSC-2008
>>> - http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/wosc2008v2.pdf ).
>>> Suppose it will be good to PR the VSM as a foundation for solving
>>> their
>>> ndividual problems through the more Global VSM approach -
>>> http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/vsm/
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Everyone,
>>>> How do we package Cybernetics in order to make it appealing to
>>>> business
>>>> people?
>>>>
>>>> For a start maybe replacing the word "Cybernetics" with a more
>>>> snappy
>>>> word
>>>> might be a good start.
>>>>
>>>> For many people the word "cybernetics" conjures up psychopathic
>>>> robots
>>>> bent on world domination. Hardly the word to use when selling
>>>> control
>>>> and
>>>> communication systems. Unless there can be found a way to make the
>>>> word
>>>> "cybernetics" cool.
>>>>
>>>> I'll leave it at that for the moment.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to cut back on posts to this list as I want to
>>>> concentrate on
>>>> the Wikkispace. The aim there for me is to attract business
>>>> managers and
>>>> others who are interested in the concepts of Cybernetics.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas or comments on how we can sell Cybernetics would be much
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Frank Wood
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>>
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>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>
>>> ---
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>>> Tested on: 08/12/2008 23:46:37
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>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
>> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
>> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1846 - Release Date: 12/12/2008 
18:59

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
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