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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: Modeling Emergent Structure

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:46:39 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (210 lines)

Very to the point, Harold,

Roger
On 10 Dec 2008, at 09:30, Garderen, Harold van wrote:

> Gents and Ladies,
>
> Doing a Synthegration will undoubtedly lead to good results, but as  
> the
> Wiki stats show: we are talking to ourselves.
>
> Why not attempt to attract new crowd first and get them involved.
>
> A suggestion: today I recieved the following article from McKinsey:
>
> http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Strategy/Growth/Creative_destruction_an
> d_the_financial_crisis_An_interview_with_Richard_Foster_2268
>
> After reading I wrote the following letter to the editor:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> It's very good to see Schumpeter being rediscovered in the public eye.
> Ofcourse many will claim in retrospect that he was never out of sight,
> but history, at least the last 40 years, suggests this was mostly lip
> service, not acceptance of the message. As Cybernetics learned since  
> the
> '50's: the purpose of a system is what it does. And the financial  
> market
> did, as neatly indicated in this article, nothing more that purposedly
> acting outside the scope of the regulated areas.
>
> This poses the next question: why are regulators behind reality and  
> only
> regulate when things go out of control. Haven't they learned how to
> regulate? How is that possible with all scientific progress since
> Schumpeter? Only mentioning Prigogine's dissipative systems,  
> complexity
> and chaos theory, Stafford Beers' Viable Systems Model, Maturana's
> autopoiesis, Checklands' Soft Systems Model, Senge's Learning
> Organization and Stuart Kaufmanns' work on co-evolution should be
> sufficient for regulators to learn and realize regulation in real time
> instead of after the fact. The same techologies developed for fighting
> terrorism can be effectively applied for monitoring the development of
> values systems and detect weak signals of non-complience as Dave  
> Snowden
> and his crew at Cognitive Edge have shown.
>
> Now back to today's article. The funny thing is that Schumpeter  
> himself
> identified the descructive forces with INNOVATION. Innovation is,
> according to him, not associated with new ideas that get new business
> started - as this article suggest - instead it is identical, or a  
> least
> strongly associated to the creative destructive forces external to the
> existing players: innovation as a force comes from the outside, not  
> from
> within.
>
> We seem to have forgotten about this since 1960, but destruction and  
> the
> emergence of new (human) value systems are at the core of innovation.
> INVENTION, despite its press, is, will and never has been the key  
> factor
> in innovation. ACCEPTANCE by customers (the one who pays the bill) and
> increasingly users (the ones that have to use the product or consume  
> the
> service) are in the drivers seat. In that sense the role of  
> centralized
> R&D departments has been oversold the last 50 years.
>
> At its core, the same holds for transaction-focussed services  
> industries
> like banking and insurance. There invention is associated with new
> financial instruments like mentioned derivatives. Unlike product
> industries the R&D function of the banking systems is far more
> discributed and thus it is hard today to point to "the guilty".
>
> Regulating discributed processes seen not the most top-of-mind concern
> of regulators today and in the past, but it is - in my opinion  
> exactly -
> where complexity based holistic science can be applied very  
> effectively.
> Please reread mentioned literature with the perspective glasses on  
> that
> innovation is related to the co-creation of new (human) value systems
> and how these processes can regulated from WITHIN the system. Yes
> within, please reread Beer.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why not start with 15 of us writing their views too so that no-one at
> McKinsey quarterly can deny that something has been missing from the
> debate lately .... :-)
>
> Are we afraid of going public?
>
> Harold
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> Sent: dinsdag 9 december 2008 21:26
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Modeling Emergent Structure
>>
>> This note was stimulated by Boris' earlier comments about
>> Prigogine. I hadn't thought about Prigogine in some time, but
>> this may be an important avenue for us.
>>
>> Suppose we used the modeling technique Stafford describes in
>> Decision and Control to apply Prigogine's dissipative
>> structures framework to our current situation?
>>
>> Twenty eight years ago I tried to do that for the individual
>> and the school. The effort was only so-so successful but at
>> that time I didn't have colleagues who knew much about
>> systems/cybernetics and no one at all that knew about Prigogine.
>>
>> I just did a half hour search of the Web and it seems that
>> there has been some work applying Prigogine's theory to
>> social systems. One of the authors I found is Immanuel
>> Wallerstein, who also predicts an imminent collapse (see
>> http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?
>> id=1766).  The Metaphorum group could, I suspect, generate a
>> very useful model in fairly short order, one that would
>> provide us with (at
>> least) provocative and useful hypotheses about what is likely
>> to happen or what might work as a response to the coming collapse.
>>
>> What about it? Shall we try?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in
>> it.... Do small things with great love."
>>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>>
>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>
> This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the  
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged,  
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>
> If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible  
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>
> Thank you for your co-operation.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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