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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with Frank

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:28:09 -0800

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Dear Rod,

It isn't academics that are pathological but the administrative set-up in many academic institutions.  It doesn't just apply to cybernetics, although the newer the field the higher probability of a rough ride.  I had a friend in a more conventional field who was refused tenure who 1. got the best student-chosen teacher award for the year and 2. and was first writer a textbook that was successful enough to have gotten a second edition and a request for a third.  Her tenure was denied simply because her research interests weren't the same as the chair's. He had a lot of influence and wanted to staff the department with his own network. 

Quite often, the absurd levels of internal competition are a result of not enough funding, no clear identity or strategic plan for the institution, frequent changes at the top with the accompanying reshuffling of factions, alliances and priorities and, finally, a poisonous atmosphere that does little to damp individuals pursuing personal grudges.

In my own case, I'd worked for 8 years in a university development office and had given up and taken another job.  Within six months our whole office or seven people had been fired because the person who was the director had complained about the then (and soon to be thrown out) president's use of the office budget for gifts for his mistress. Ironically, the director was the only one not out of a job.  She had been seconded from a faculty position and went back.

Sorry about the ranting reply, 
Allenna


--- On Tue, 12/9/08, ROD THOMAS <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: ROD THOMAS <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with Frank
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:07 AM
> Dear Barry,
> This just substitutes the charge that academia is
> 'stupid' with the charge that its
> 'worthless' and 'pathological'. This is a
> good way to deepen the entrenchment of positions and insure
> that communities remain closed.
> Regards,
> Rod
> 
> --- On Fri, 5/12/08, BARRY A CLEMSON
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in
> thread with Frank
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, 5 December, 2008, 4:24 PM
> 
> 
> Rod,
> 
> 
> Sorry, I forgot a main point I wanted to make.
> 
> 
> I don't think that most systems people feel academics
> are stupid. Rather, the academic system is seriously
> pathological. For example:
>  - good teaching is actually punished (i.e., it generates
> more students for you and that keeps you from securing the
> research funding and publishing that are the only real
> measures of success)
>  - by far the easiest way to succeed in academia is to
> grab some very narrow little problem and focus on it to the
> exclusion of all else.
>  - make sure your writing is incomprehensible to everyone
> except the specialists in your little corner of the
> universe. If at all possible, write the paper in obscure
> mathematics. 
> The more prestigious the university, the more true these
> generalizations are and the more rigidly the faculty is
> bound by them. 
> 
> 
> Given these pathologies, it is a wonder that academics ever
> manage to do anything worthwhile. 
> 
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 5, 2008, at 10:45 AM, ROD THOMAS wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear All,
>  
> If I could rant too:
>  
> One of the problems with this list is that its also very
> close to being a closed system. It rarely makes reference
> to anything but itself or Stafford. It regularly has a pop
> at managers and academics for being stupid or unenlightened.
> I have time for only three observations:
>  
> 1. ONE of the reasons that systems thinking has such a
> weak foothold in academia is that conventional wisdom
> believes it to have been well examined, debated critically,
> and found wanting. I do not myself agree with this
> judgement, but it is probably easy to find instances of
> criticism being unanswered - especially in management
> literature. Stafford himself was hardly a super example of
> someone who took the trouble to respond to critics. If you
> don't argue your case in Court - then you can hardly be
> surprised when the Court forms a judgement against you.
> I'm afraid a self selected list server is no place to
> argue the case.
>  
> 2. There ARE powerful advocates of systemic modelling in
> the social sciences. In 2007, the leading journal,
> Philosophy of Social Sciences, published a special edition
> on systems thinking to examine the work of one such person -
> Mario Bunge. Bunge himself has published numerous books and
> articles on his social philosophy - a part of which
> carefully examines all modes of individualism and finds them
> wanting. But he does not fall into the holistic
> authoritarianism that I sometimes detect on this list
> server, the problem that was always the bete noire of holism
> throughtout the ages - including managemnet cybernetics.
> Bunge is a physicist, logician and philosopher.  His
> epistemological realism might not be to the taste of all
> Metaphorum members!
>  
> 3. The problems with mainstream economics are well known.
> Even to some economists. There are many books about it - not
> least Omerod's 'The Death of Economics'. Or
> Mirowski - 'Economics becomes a cyborg science'.
> Indeed, the claim that the economic organization of society
> is fundamental for all social institutions was labelled
> 'economism' by Karl Popper back in 1945. Popper
> identified it with Marx - now Marxism is the new
> capitalism!. One of Popper's students _ M.A. Nortuno -
>  is a brilliant critic of economism - see his paper in a
> journal called 'Critical Review' in 2006.
>  
> In short.... there is a world out there.... and not all
> academics are nearly as stupid as some list serve
> contributors might suppose.
>  
> Best,
> Rod Thomas
>  
>  
>  
>    -- On Fri, 5/12/08, Luc Hoebeke
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> From: Luc Hoebeke <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in
> thread with Frank
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, 5 December, 2008, 1:04 PM
> 
> Dear Roger,
> 
> I try to paraphrase what I understood from your little
> rant.
> 
> Having worked with directors of SME's in Barcelona,
> which in spite of  
> all the crisis talk are doing good business although a bit
> more  
> stressful because of the "crisis", I can refer
> how they look at their
>  
> role in society. Wealth and well-being are generated
> through  
> relations, in fact variety in the cybernetic sense. Policy
> makers and  
> big organizations are in the business of breaking
> relations, relations  
> with their workers and employees, relations with their
> voters,  
> relations with people in general, hence than cannot do
> anything else  
> than create scarcity (monoculture as Allenna would say).
> This is  
> because the only variety-reduction mechanism they
> understand is divide  
> to rule, practically to classify everything neatly in boxes
> or EXCEL  
> cells. What is called economy of scale are scarcity
> creating machines,  
> because the way they define efficiency is by looking at
> their  
> entreprises(cost and profit centres) as closed systems. The
> cost of  
> breaking relations and the ensueing desertification is left
> for the  
> many: costs socialized and profits (stemming from this
> pseudo- 
> efficiency) privatized. What happens with the banks and now
> with the  
> automotive industry in the USA is a shameful example of the
> ineptness  
> of mainstream economical theory, which starts from the
> premice that  
> the basic unit of decision is the individual ,as if an
> identity, even  
> of an individual, is not a relational concept (as in the
> VSM). That is  
> the reason why I am engaging in "systems"
> thinking and practice, by  
> rebuilding relations where they have been severed. Wealth
> and well- 
> being are the normal subproducts, mostly not to be found in
>  
> accounting. Accounting is doing as if nothing is linked to
> other  
> items, only by addition. There we go for accountability.
> Instead of  
> asking who is guilty, the question is what are the severed
> relations  
> which create the concept of guiltiness and the ensueing
> lack of wealth  
> and wellbeing.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Luc
> 
> 
> Op 5-dec-08, om 13:06 heeft Roger Harnden het volgende
> geschreven:
> 
> > Frank, I think it is all tangled up with concepts 
> like 'paradigms,  
> > 'dominant logic', 'horizon'.
> >
> > And the systemic tendency in our modern form of
> capitalism then  
> > dominates and seeks to claim any middle ground in its
> imposition of  
> > things like 'political correctness' ,
> 'freedom',
> democracy,  
> > 'equality' all of which then become denatured,
> leaving the  
> > individuals who genuinely aspire towards living such
> values, adrift.
> >
> > For a concrete example (and I'll make an effort to
> contain my own  
> > sliding into jargon, here):
> >
> > A lot of us are old enough  to remember those debates
> in the  
> > seventies and eighties about the nature of future work
> and leisure;  
> > the impact of ever increasing automation etc. We all
> did our bit of  
> > reading of Toffler, Barry Sherman, Giles Merritt etc.
> And I, for one  
> > (because I am intrinsically the sort of lost spirit to
> which Stefan  
> > refers), genuinely looked forward to a future in which
> time spent on  
> > paid work became less and time spent on leisure
> (unpaid work) became  
> > more. Because, I intuited that the SURPLUS created by
> the excess  
> > would not flow into unregulated money markets and
> service industries  
> > created specifically to soak up such excess, but would
> flow towards  
> > what I call HUMAN values - welfare, education, health,
> sustainable  
> > development, dissemination of wealth world-wide.
> >
> > The truly shocking thing to me in the current crisis,
> is that we  
> > have all been made aware of the fantastically enormous
> scale of that  
> > money squirrelled away into a more-or-less closed
> system, called  
> > 'the markets' 9which, ironiocally, are nothing
> to do with our  
> > traditional view of markets, in which people of all
> sorts came  
> > together socially, to present and exchange goods and
> services to one  
> > another. As we all now know, automation did in fact
> generate  
> > enormous surplus,. It is now real (not speculative)
> and in amounts  
> > far exceeding what we then dreamt, or what anyone has
> been telling  
> > citizens. And, as we have come to witness the real
> scale of these  
> > accrued surplus' it is truly horrific and INHUMAN
> to see what a  
> > small ration would be needed to revolutionise many
> many aspects of  
> > many many societies world-wide, as well as our own.
> But this is  
> > still treated as a 'blindspot' in our social
> and economic
> discourse.
> >
> > So in fact what we have in terms of our economic
> social  
> > organisation, is formal social organisations becoming
> filled with  
> > more and more people (even though, historically
> speaking there are  
> > less and less employees), doing increasingly
> overlapping tasks.  
> > Organisations are becoming ever more SPONGY,
> unaccountable and  
> > inhuman. The unaccountability is because (just like
> the unaccounted  
> > and invisible funds) no one wants to expose the
> SPONGINESS (think of  
> > baby P etc).
> >
> > And, so we are in an economic climate where everyone
> (in whatever  
> > profession) feels the need to work harder and harder,
> yet cover more  
> > and more things, and do worse and worse at their core
> job, because  
> > they are spread so thin - instead of a situation
> -0surely more human  
> > - in which people are able to spend more focused time
> on their core  
> > occupation because more people are employed to take
> account of the  
> > variety of tasks needing to be done well in a
> coordinated fashion.
> >
> > At the same time, we have NO increase in LEISURE time
> - though we do  
> > have  a massive increase in LEISURE SPEND.
> >
> > So, Stefan, my Karma might have been bad, but so has
> been the karma  
> > for our present economic, social national and
> international systems.
> >
> > And, Frank, I do not think this is confronting
> cybernetics with an  
> > insurmountable challenge, because I think it can be
> captured  
> > (indicated - GSB)_ and defined (distinguished - GSB),
> and addressed  
> > through various aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once
> more, the issue  
> > of the impact of cybernetics is, more, I believe to do
> with our  
> > confidence as to our identity, and a more clearly
> ennunciated  
> > message (inside our community and outside to the
> world) about what  
> > we actually DO. This concerns languaging, as we have
> variously  
> > talked about over the years, including the specific
> terms used, for  
> > example, about the various VSM systems.
> >
> > Roger
> > On 4 Dec 2008, at 23:39, Frank wrote:
> >
> >> Roger,
> >> thanks for a powerful and interesting reply.
> >>
> >> There's not much more that I can add to it.
> >>
> >> I suppose on one level when I wade through the
> academese I see  
> >> myself as outside but when I'm writing as
> here, I see myself as  
> >> inside. Although I may come across as critical of
> academese, I'm  
> >> critical in the context of is there going to be
> steps to get  
> >> cybernetics out to businesses and businessmen?
> >>
> >> Maybe it's a case of a ferment. Where
> something practical emerges 
> 
> >> out of the theorising and then this is taken to
> the "masses"
> so to  
> >> speak. By practical I mean something that can be
> used by  
> >> consultants as they implement the principles of
> cybernetics.
> >>
> >> But of course there will be massive problems.
> Organisation man will  
> >> not take kindly to cybernetics. Take the Law of
> Requisite Variety.  
> >> It's true that knowledge is power. In this
> case knowledge of the  
> >> processes of an organisation is also
> responsibility. Which means  
> >> that when something ends in disaster no one can
> say "I didn't
> know  
> >> what was happening". So proper controls a la
> Law of Requisite  
> >> Variety will be fiercely resisted by all, right
> down to the shop  
> >> floor.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger
> Harnden"
> <[log in to unmask] 
> >> >
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:52 AM
> >> Subject: Metaphorum Identity - outside and inside
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank,
> >>
> >> I think this relates to Javier's words on
> S3/S4 activities of the
> >> Metaphorum community. As he indicates, RH is
> clearly S4, and has
> >> littler interest unless forced, in moving from
> that identity. The  
> >> only
> >> problem is that there needs to be further S3 input
> - not that RH S4
> >> ceases or becomes S3. And I think you are
> proposing the need for that
> >> in a particular domain (in other words, in some
> such thing as
> >> LISTSERVE).
> >>
> >> Your comparison may or may not be apposite, and as
> we have both
> >> indicated it might be tackled by one of two main
> ways:
> >>
> >> 1. clearer, more accessible language
> >> 2. a different listserve.
> >>
> >> However, a real issue, indicated by this very
> interaction between
> >> myself and you, is that the advise (from you) is
> advice from outside,
> >> as it were. In other words, though participating
> you are adopting the
> >> position of an outsider to something that HAS
> insiders. This is a
> >> fascinating issue of Boundaries (which Russell has
> commented on in a
> >> somewhat different context in the wiki).
> >>
> >> Because, over the months and years, this sort of
> mixed dialogue has
> >> been quite regular. Now I don't know whether
> this is
> characteristic  
> >> of
> >> this sort of forum. or pathological (in other
> words) indicating
> >> something wrong with this particular forum). You
> are talking with me
> >> as if I am an INSIDER, but, Frank, I am talking
> with you as also an
> >> INSIDER. This is a fascinating instance of the
> play of structure and
> >> organisation in practice (M&V). The shifting
> configurations of
> >> structure in this instance are individuals coming
> and going, and
> >> through their coming and going and recurrent
> interactions, coupling
> >> Metaphorum to a niche (that itself is instanced by
> individuals coming
> >> and going). However, for the OBSERVER (in this
> case RH and FW) there
> >> is a meta-level coupling (In Pasks's language
> CONVERSATION) in
> which
> >> the two individuals CHOOSE their operational
> reality in a Spencer
> >> Brown manner. In this first instance, you are
> Choosing outside
> >> Metaphorum which has RH as inside; but I am
> choosing inside  
> >> Metaphorum
> >> as including FW).
> >>
> >> For those practitioners amongst us, this should be
> quite valuable and
> >> interesting in indicating new tools and methods,
> because, guys, it
> >> goes on all the time in terms of social
> organisations which are in
> >> some shape or form 'organisationally'
> closed, but
> 'informationally'
> >> open.
> >>
> >> So there's a good old paradox. Are you in or
> are you out? Is RH in
> or
> >> is he out?
> >>
> >> Now, for me (and I am not saying this is the case
> for others) the
> >> present LISTSERVE should service this ambiguity,
> because that domain
> >> of uncertainty is at the heart of any learning
> domain. But you are
> >> 100% correct, that a learning domain is very
> different from a sales  
> >> or
> >> marketing domain.
> >>
> >> Roger
> >>
> >> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:57, Roger Harnden wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes,
> >>>
> >>> I suppose what I am saying is that there
> should be another space  
> 
> >>> that IS explicitly outward facing, but that
> LISTSERVE members  
> >>> have  access to for their outwardfacingness.
> >>>
> >>> Or doesn't that make sense?
> >>> Roger
> >>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:23, Frank wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Roger,
> >>>> agreed. I was on the Complex-M listserv
> for some years. It was
>   
> >>>> intimate and personal and we had our rows
> like any family :-) 
> 
> >>>> and  it was a great mix of professioanals,
> academics and
> managers  
> >>>> and we  for the most part all spoke in a
> clear language and
> those  
> >>>> that  didn't were from time to time
> pulled up on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by
> "a platform for
> individuals  
> >>>> to launch themselves."
> >>>>
> >>>> Unless you are going to plan a separate
> listserv along the
> above   
> >>>> line you will not get much interest from
> business. IMO anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Roger Harnden"
> <[log in to unmask]
> >>>> >
> >>>> To:
> <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:15
> PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Toward a viable economy #2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> Should Listseve be that 'outward
> facing' space?
> Isn't and shouldn't
> >>>> LISTSERVE be something more intimate and
> personal, but provide
> the
> >>>> platform for individuals to launch
> themselves?
> >>>>
> >>>> ROger
> >>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:01, Frank wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think it was John Warfield that
> spoke of context,
> content and  
> >>>>> process. So which comes first?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Will the content determine the context
> and process?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Will the context determine the content
> and process?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Will the process determine the content
> and context?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As regards a new Listserv, could it be
> a place where
> everything  
> >>>>> is discussed in clear English? The
> reason being that in
> order  
> >>>>> to   succeed in this project we need
> to be able to attract
>  
> >>>>> businessmen  at  all levels.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "BARRY A
> CLEMSON" <[log in to unmask]
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> To:
> <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008
> 10:04 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Toward a viable economy #2
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The big question is “how do we get
> cybernetic control
> systems  
> >>>>> into  the
> >>>>> discussion for reforming the world
> financial system?”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All of us, me too, have been pretty
> much wringing our
> hands “woe  
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> me” I don’t know how to get
> anybody to listen. Enough
> of that   
> >>>>> crap. I
> >>>>> don’t want to have to tell my
> grandchildren that I
> didn’t try.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We need to systematically see whom we
> can recruit to build
>  
> >>>>> support  for
> >>>>> this effort. There are two different
> levels of support we
> can  
> >>>>> ask  for:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) the world needs management
> cybernetics, or, as a
> fall-back   
> >>>>> position
> >>>>> 2) the insights of
> cybernetics/systems/feedback loops
> provide   
> >>>>> powerful
> >>>>> tools for designing regulatory systems
> that would be far  
> >>>>> superior to
> >>>>> what we have now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Clearly we would like people to stand
> up and say we need  
> >>>>> management
> >>>>> cybernetics. But there are a lot of
> super-stars out there
> (Russell
> >>>>> Ackoff, Peter Senge, Jay Forrester,
> John Warfield) who
> will   
> >>>>> certainly
> >>>>> support the second and that would be a
> big step.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We have at least a couple of months
> before people start
> seriously
> >>>>> thinking about what sort of controls
> should be put into
> place on  
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> global financial system. For at least
> a few months
> everyone will  
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> too busy trying to put out fires to
> even think about a new
> control
> >>>>> system.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Crises bring out both the best and
> worst in people.
> Therefore,   
> >>>>> hoping
> >>>>> for the best, I think we should try to
> think of superstars
> that we
> >>>>> might possibly enlist in our campaign.
> The worst that will
>  
> >>>>> happen is
> >>>>> that they will say no.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have been out of academia for ten
> years so I am woefully
> out of
> >>>>> date, but here is my initial
> brainstorm of people we
> should try to
> >>>>> enlist:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Russell Ackoff
> >>>>> Peter Senge
> >>>>> Jay Forrester
> >>>>> Jay Forrester, Jr, some years back was
> head of research
> for a  
> >>>>> big  oil
> >>>>> company and was doing System Dynamics
> for them
> >>>>> Chuck Keating, former president of
> Engineering Management 
> 
> >>>>> Society  and
> >>>>> my PhD student and later my colleague.
> >>>>> Bill Reckmeyer has lots of contacts
> all over the place
> >>>>> John Sutherland
> >>>>> Stuart Umpleby has a very effective
> laid back style that  
> >>>>> encourages
> >>>>> people to try new things and Stuart is
> in DC
> >>>>> Gordon Pask’s old contacts in the US
> military
> >>>>> Warren Buffet (yes, that Buffet)
> >>>>> George Soros (was once supportive of
> Friedman and later
> became
> >>>>> critical of him)
> >>>>> Paul Krugman, nobel laureate in
> Economics and NYTimes
> columnist
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now, I have a couple of suggestions
> for your consideration
> (please
> >>>>> improve upon all of this – I
> consider everything I have
> said  
> >>>>> here  as a
> >>>>> starting point that I hope the rest of
> you will chew up
> and   
> >>>>> improve).
> >>>>> That said, I suggest:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - a new list serve dedicated to trying
> to 1) get these
> ideas  
> >>>>> into  the
> >>>>> conversation and 2) designing the
> outlines of a new
> control system
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - everyone of us should brainstorm
> possible allies to get
> the  
> >>>>> ideas
> >>>>> considered. Then we should all help
> think about how to
> contact  
> >>>>> these
> >>>>> people. For instance, I know Ackoff
> but haven’t spoken
> to him  
> >>>>> in  more
> >>>>> than 20 years so I am unlikely to be
> the best one to
> approach  
> >>>>> him).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Barry
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Oh, boy. Fear and trembling. I feel
> like Gandalf
> confronting the
> >>>>> balrog: "I'm already
> tired"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ===================================================
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
> >>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 757-692-6673
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cybernetica Press at
> www.cyberneticapress.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "It's not how much you do -
> it's how much
> love you put in it....  
> >>>>> Do
> >>>>> small things with great love."
> >>>>>        --- Mother Teresa ---
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he
> can not be
> defeated.
> >>>>> --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty
> river.
> >>>>>   -- Inspired by the prophet Amos
> 5:24--
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "An enemy is a person whose story
> we have not
> heard."
> >>>>>       -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment
> (MCWE) go  
> >>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---
> >>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message
> clean.
> >>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0,
> 03/12/2008
> >>>>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 22:27:18
> >>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL
> Software.
> >>>>> http://www.avast.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment
> (MCWE) go  
> >>>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>
> >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go
>  
> >>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>
> >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
> >>>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 23:17:51
> >>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL
> Software.
> >>>> http://www.avast.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>
> >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go
>  
> >>>> to: www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>
> >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>
> >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>
> >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>
> >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>
> >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
> >>
> >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>
> >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
> >> Tested on: 04/12/2008 19:21:03
> >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> >> http://www.avast.com
> >>
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>
> >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
> >>
> >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>
> >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
> >
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
> at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ===================================================
> 
> 
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 757-692-6673
> 
> 
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love
> you put in it.... Do small things with great love."
>             --- Mother Teresa ---
> 
> 
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be
> defeated. 
>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> 
> 
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> 
> 
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not
> heard."
>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
> at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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