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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: Viable Economy #3

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:29:28 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (970 lines)

Dear Steve,

Yes, the minute you step into ecology, things get complicated.  There are other people who are saying that wind patterns changed by global warming are amplifying dead zones in areas like the Pacific off Oregon. There are more than 400 of them now and they are increasing with the largest 27,000 square miles.  They do occur naturally but a lot of them are where fertilizer and untreated sewage pour in off the coasts - e.g. one the size of New Jersey off the mouth of the Mississippi.

For anyone who is interested, there is a new book called "Seasick" by Allanna Mitchell that brings together a lot of information on threats to the ecology of the oceans. 

But, to the metaphor:  the idea is to use it to think through where the homeostats in the social economy might be and to look for the balances. My point was than an 'unnatural' increase in the money supply (nutrients) based on a musical chairs performance of minimally leveraged debt had a parallel to the algae that end up on the sea floor as food for oxygen depleting bacteria.  The fall out leaves insufficient resources for the other economic actors to engage in their normal transactions.

The result might be to ask where and how it would make sense to impose limits (Stefan made some good points on this) to prevent/contain the next problem.

In a related argument Robert Reich (a potential contact for our network?) in "Supercapitalism" tallked about how global capitalism had created benefits for consumers and investors, including all of us with asset based pension plans, while at the same time producing costs for us as citizens. This is one possibility for a game of 'find the homeostats'.

He contrasted the present time with an 'almost golden age' in the '50's in North America when pent up demand for consumer goods and a strong labour union movement produced a situation where workers made enough to buy the cars and corporate leaders might be expected to take some  actions for the common good - even if mostly to enhance their own standing in their communities.  

In the present time, there is more competition and more innovation but much less in the way of informal constraints while the risks of losing in the competition (e.g. the automotive industry) are disproportionately borne by those at the bottom of the economic pile. 


Allenna

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Wright, Steve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Wright, Steve <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 6:16 AM
> Allena
> 
> Interesting - and then there are unexpected
> consequences.... Las Sundays
> Observer had a University of Leeds Bod saying that
> production of Algae
> blooms might slow down  global warming... His theory is
> that iron
> contained in melting glaciers and icebergs will, when
> released, provide
> iron and other nutrients which will sped up the production
> of algae
> blooms which will help absorb CO2....
> 
> So I guess the short answer is yet but beware of pure
> metaphors since we
> might not be aware of all the subsystems that work during a
> priod of
> rapid transition.....
> 
> Steve
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> allenna
> leonard
> Sent: 07 December 2008 00:58
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3
> 
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Trying to take my own advice on biological metaphors.  I
> offer this as a
> metaphor for the sub-prime/asset backed securities crisis.
> 
> What if we compared it to an algae bloom (or harmful algae
> bloom - HAB)?
> 
> This occurs when excess nutrients enter the water through
> natural means
> or by human flushing of phosphorus.   The result is that a
> particular
> form comes to dominate the local marine environment and
> sucks oxygen out
> of the water.  This means that other fish and plants are
> not viable or
> less viable in the affected area.  Some HAB's also
> release neurotoxins
> that poison the areas as well as taking up all the oxygen.
> 
> Offering unrealistic rates of return brought floods of
> highly leveraged
> investment into the market; thus crowding out investments
> in sounder but
> less lucrative opportunities - taking the 'oxygen'
> out of the milieu.
> Positive feedback combined with lack of regulation and
> oversight on
> these processes encouraged unwise loans to be made which
> were found to
> be toxic when they could not be paid off. 
> 
> Is this sort of analogy apt? useful? 
> 
> Allenna  
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 12/6/08, BARRY A CLEMSON
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > From: BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Viable Economy #3
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 5:30 PM
> > Ah, Roger, as you note the "systems" are in
> place
> > and flourishing. Systems will arise, whether we will
> it or not, just 
> > as rabbits and foxes will interact.
> > 
> > The problem is that we humans go about our business
> within these 
> > systems and do not think about them systemically. For
> example, 
> > professors prattle on about "teaching, research,
> and service" as the 
> > goals of the university and set up faculty evaluation
> processes as if 
> > those three were really meaningful. in the meantime
> the system does 
> > what it does and everybody pretends not to notice the
> > pathologies. I would suggest this syndrome is true of
> every
> > system we would care to consider (or at least those
> that
> > have been around for a while).
> > 
> > Thus, I do not think the system side is widely
> recognized, embedded in
> 
> > discourse, or put into practice. What we have instead
> is a system of 
> > systems which have grown like topsy and which are all
> pathological to 
> > some degree, ranging from mildly messed up to almost
> totally evil.
> > 
> > Somehow, in spite of this, I remain (totally
> irrationally) optimistic.
> 
> > It must be a genetic defect, sort of like my families
> lack of fear of 
> > heights.
> > 
> > Barry
> > 
> > 
> > On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:
> > 
> > > It's not just about BLAME, Stefan. It's
> > anguish as to how many 'systems' -whether
> financial, health-care, 
> > education, social welfare - somehow (because they are
> 'systems') get 
> > absolved from any responsibility. I'm sorry, guys
> an gals, but there 
> > is a down-side to systems thinking. That's not to
> say it is
> > not valuable, but that it has to be applied with a
> > complementary set of tools concerning (as I keep
> plaintively
> > saying) something akin to calculus of distinction.
> Only thus
> > can part be distinguished from whole. And one of the
> > problems we are addressing in terms of present
> financial
> > crisis (and the present day UK crisis in child welfare
> > services) is the failure for the fundamental need for
> such
> > complementaryness to be recognised. The
> 'system'
> > side IS widely recognised, embedded in discourse, and
> > indeed, put into practice. And, I suggest, VSM - and
> > Patrick's useful comments on the play of
> recursiveness
> > have their place here - allows this flip-flop of whole
> and
> > part to take place, and allow us to escape the
> otherwise
> > oganisational tyranny of global system thinking,
> > > 
> > > Roger
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 6 Dec 2008, at 00:15, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Allenna
> > >> 
> > >> Economics is not so hard and if left to
> Economists
> > alone the world would be in an even worst state
> because the UK had a 
> > water based economic-model in the 50's that work
> but showed their 
> > assumptions wrong because is was inelastic.
> > >> 
> > >> The combination of events that makes this
> mess
> > even possible to solve is a series of accidental laws,
> > driven by post criminal events, that were enacted in
> the
> > late 70's and 80's and drove capital up first
> in the insurance 
> > industry and then the banks.
> > >> 
> > >> The failure of regulation was not to take the
> > process one step further and demand all new financial
> products be 
> > vetted before being sold to the public whether
> so-called educated 
> > investor or joe.
> > >> 
> > >> The process that drove the reinsurance spiral
> of
> > the late 70's and 80's was obvious to all but
> the
> > DTI didn't stop it even when they could see the
> problem. Market forces
> 
> > drove capital up in the insurance industry and the
> rapid spread of 
> > globalisation also spread the processes of leverage
> within the 
> > reinsurance market into the capital
> > markets: A CDO is a portfolio reinsurance similar to
> the LMX spiral 
> > that destroyed a lot of lives in Lloyd's.
> > >> 
> > >> Indeed I warned them that risk must be
> supported
> > with Liquidity in the early 90's but JPM first
> brought
> > out RiskMetrics then CreditMetrics and everyone
> thought that the world
> 
> > was Normal (Binomial). It isn't. They were using
> models and pricing 
> > processes that didn't fit the risks because data
> wasn't pure (LTCM).
> > >> 
> > >> All businesses, and finance is the most
> critical
> > for risk pricing, are dynamic; conditional; and
> therefore unknowable 
> > unless you have a map to see where the risks are being
> played out. 
> > Top-down and bottom-up.
> > >> 
> > >> The risk pricing and swapping processes that
> > existed in reinsurance in the late 70's were far
> more sophisticated 
> > that any I've seen in finance to-date but failed
> ultimately because 
> > their universe of risk was bounded in economic premium
> size, and 
> > coupled to Nature and the US's legal structure,
> which as we know is 
> > out of control. A society that sues for the merest
> whiff of money
> > and doesn't accept self-responsibility for
> anything has
> > driven us to the brink.
> > >> 
> > >> Previous emails herein have considered Blame.
> No
> > single individual was to blame, that would demand a
> planned approach 
> > to the current situation and something I don't
> care to think about. 
> > What was to blame is our continued blindness is
> regulating leveraged 
> > banking when common sense says the worlds economic
> situation shows 
> > single figure yields but bankers think they can get
> 30% returns for 
> > years.
> > >> 
> > >> What was synthesised in my mind the moment I
> saw
> > the VSM was the possibility
> > >> 
> > >> to couple bounded zones of economic
> operations
> > >> in a nested fashion and set up communication
> > processes
> > >> with PC's that automatically adjusted
> > feed-forward parameters and alerted management.
> > >> 
> > >> The Plumtree Insurance Company was Coopers
> &
> > Lybrand's UK training model for insurance company
> audit,
> > it had Expert Systems discretely placed at important
> parts
> > of the processing of risk pricing and exposure
> monitoring.
> > At the board reporting level the system had control
> over all the HP 
> > Mini's data, managing the DTI reporting function
> through another set 
> > of Rules. All the rules were self-similar because code
> was re-used 
> > over and over again to achieve simplicity and speed.
> The company could
> 
> > get its quarterly reports actuarially assessed and
> signed off within
> > 2-weeks of close.
> > >> 
> > >> How do I know so much about this? Because I
> > designed it using Lotus Symphony, a PICK-based HP
> software and an 
> > expert system shell called GURU using Compaq PC's
> in 1983, for a 
> > company called Bryanston Insurance Company (Robert
> Holmes a'Court Bell
> 
> > Group).
> > >> 
> > >> If you looked inside the company it had
> > feed-forward parameters, networked audit, a board that
> > didn't just sit monthly but daily and an online
> risk
> > pricing system with one-day at best time-lags. As the
> business got 
> > more complex all we did was plug the new division into
> the system.
> > >> 
> > >> The company failed for two reasons. The DTI
> > allowed the business to be bought but never asked the
> management what 
> > research they'd done on the acquirers for they had
> and the DTI had 
> > not. The second was human greed of a new group CEO who
> had no relative
> 
> > risk experience, again a DTI required monitoring
> process.
> > >> 
> > >> 11-years later, after all, Black Monday, the
> 1992
> > debacle, LTCM, Big Bang etc I presented Synergy, a new
> insurance 
> > product, to the FSA whose initial response was
> 'why don't all 
> > financial products get looked at before they go on the
> market?' We 
> > agreed.
> > >> 
> > >> I'm reading Greenspan's autobiography
> for
> > support in my PhD along with a book called 'A
> Devil of
> > our own making' kindly sent to me by Angelo who
> you met
> > last year. Greenspan could easily have spotted the
> problem
> > if he'd got the right data for that was what he
> made his
> > name in the first place. The problem is that they
> don't
> > have the right data, don't vet products and their
> impact
> > and have allowed common-sense to wither.
> > >> 
> > >> When Basle II was mooted, I presented
> products to
> > adapt capital dynamically and look at operational risk
> through the 
> > eyes of the VSM, thereby forcing the regulators to
> search for 
> > boundaries and couplings across multiple domains.
> Everything you say 
> > in your reply to Barry is sound and economically good
> sense but when 
> > Harvard pumps out MBA's at the rate they have the
> re-education process
> 
> > is going to be horrid: The World had shown again fixed
> > paradigms don't work but a good map will always
> guide
> > you in principle.
> > >> 
> > >> In the capital markets volatility is where
> money
> > is made and JPM are doing fabulously well today
> trading all sorts of 
> > stuff. So things aren't all what the papers/TV say
> they are.
> > >> 
> > >> For you, and those who had the staying power
> to
> > get this far, there's more, thank you Allenna,
> > you've made me sketch out the next 2-years of
> research
> > work!
> > >> 
> > >> Stefan
> > >> On 5 Dec 2008, at 21:19, allenna leonard
> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>> Dear Barry,
> > >>> 
> > >>> While I make no claim to understanding
> > economics myself, it would seem that we are not alone
> given the mess 
> > we're in. Regardless, economists need to
> understand some basic ideas 
> > about systems.  Didn't Greenspan say his
> predictions were off because 
> > he hadn't accounted for the high degree of short
> term self interest
> > that drive traders? Reward systems anyone?
> > >>> 
> > >>> Speculator expectations seems as good a
> place
> > to start as any.  It might at least start the ball
> rolling.
> > >>> 
> > >>> When I did the work for the Canadian
> Institute
> > of Chartered Accountants we were always concerned with
> how 'soft' the 
> > basis for determining the figures that went into the
> 'hard' balance 
> > sheet were.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Auditors are supposed to verify three
> > assumptions:
> > >>> 1. the completeness assumption - had all
> the
> > assets and liabilities been included?
> > >>> 2. the going concern assumption - would
> the
> > company still be in business in 12 months? (Plenty of
> people think 12 
> > months is inadequate for complex organizations or ones
> like the auto 
> > industry that are supposed to be able to provide parts
> and services 
> > for much longer periods)
> > >>> 3. the management good faith assumption
> (our
> > work said that wasn't taken seriously enough and
> > didn't go far enough - without a mechanism to
> assure transparency and 
> > solicit multiple perspectives)
> > >>> 
> > >>> It was fun hearing the stories my
> deceased
> > colleague Bill Bradshaw used to tell - like about how
> a
> > whole audit unravelled when one of the auditors asked
> the simple 
> > question "And how many pensioners do you
> have?"
> > >>> 
> > >>> BTW, one of the things former banker
> Bernard
> > Lietaer said was that debt driven expansion was
> inherently unstable.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Allenna
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> --- On Fri, 12/5/08, BARRY A CLEMSON
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>>> From: BARRY A CLEMSON
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Subject: Viable Economy #3
> > >>>> To:
> [log in to unmask]
> > >>>> Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:55
> AM
> > >>>> This is my third rant about
> developing a
> > cybernetically
> > >>>> sound regulatory system for the
> global
> > economy. For the sake
> > >>>> of brevity, I am going to make some
> > straightforward
> > >>>> assertions, without much in the way
> of
> > qualifying comments.
> > >>>> Please consider all of this as
> tentative
> > and my challenge to
> > >>>> you to improve upon it.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> OUR GOALS:
> > >>>> 1) Every national government in the
> world
> > should have a
> > >>>> "Council of Systemic
> Advisors",
> > similar to the
> > >>>> existing Council of Economic
> Advisors.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> In the US we also have a Science
> Advisor
> > to the President,
> > >>>> but there is no one charged with
> > explicitly thinking about
> > >>>> systemic issues. A Council of
> Systemic
> > Advisors would, in
> > >>>> the long run, have an enormous impact
> on
> > government policies
> > >>>> and on the university and the roles
> of
> > cybernetics/systems
> > >>>> within the university (which in turn
> would
> > feed back for
> > >>>> more impact on government and
> > corporations).
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 2) We need Obama and his team of
> economic
> > advisors to be
> > >>>> aware of and receptive to the
> cybernetic
> > community's
> > >>>> insights re. regulation in complex
> > systems.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> To achieve goal #2, we do not need a
> fully
> > developed design
> > >>>> for regulating the global economy
> What we
> > need to begin are
> > >>>> a few well chosen demonstrations of
> where
> > cybernetics would
> > >>>> dramatically improve on the current
> > economic thinking that
> > >>>> led to the current crisis. At the
> risk of
> > revealing my
> > >>>> abysmal ignorance about economics and
> the
> > stock market, i
> > >>>> will suggest that the current system
> is
> > largely a positive
> > >>>> feedback loop with "speculator
> > expectations" as
> > >>>> the  key level (to use
> Forrester's
> > system dynamics
> > >>>> language). If this is even close to
> > correct, then the system
> > >>>> is GUARANTEED  to engage in wild
> swings
> > and ultimately
> > >>>> collapse. Regardless of the
> correctness of
> > my example, I
> > >>>> think what we need to get our ideas
> on the
> > table is a few
> > >>>> such examples of systemic
> alternatives to
> > grossly inadequate
> > >>>> designs.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> STRATEGY
> > >>>> 1) We need a group focused on
> developing
> > the examples of
> > >>>> where cybernetic thinking would
> > dramatically improve upon
> > >>>> current orthodoxy. Hopefully there
> are at
> > least a few of our
> > >>>> number who understand a little about
> > economics and maybe can
> > >>>> do this fairly quickly.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 2) Obama is certainly the most
> important
> > player right now,
> > >>>> but other nations should not be
> ignored.
> > And getting to the
> > >>>> government of one country might well
> make
> > it easier to get
> > >>>> to the government of other countries.
> > Thus, we should all
> > >>>> work on our own national governments
> (and,
> > where possible,
> > >>>> help each other). Thus we need a
> group
> > focused on how to get
> > >>>> the attention of the national
> decision
> > makers.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 3) This is much bigger than just
> > management cybernetics. We
> > >>>> need to enlist every system thinker
> in the
> > world. (NOTE: I
> > >>>> am now really going to reveal the
> > ignorance resulting from
> > >>>> spending most of the last ten years
> as a
> > carpenter and
> > >>>> ignoring the academic world, but
> perhaps i
> > can still make
> > >>>> the point). We need to enlist and
> ally
> > with groups such as
> > >>>> System Dynamics, Society for General
> > System Theory (I know,
> > >>>> it transmogrified into a different
> group
> > but I don't
> > >>>> remember the new name), and the
> > organizational learning
> > >>>> folks such as Peter Senge who
> emphasize
> > systems thinking.
> > >>>> Undoubtedly there are many others I
> > don't know about.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> NEXT STEPS
> > >>>> 1) We need to know who is interested
> and
> > willing to work on
> > >>>> this project. Step right up and
> volunteer.
> > Indicate:
> > >>>> - your country
> > >>>> - sketch of your background, what you
> > bring to the table,
> > >>>> how you see yourself helping.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 2) A dedicated forum, listserve or
> some
> > such. Some of you
> > >>>> are much more knowledgeable than I
> about
> > what we need to
> > >>>> support the project.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 3) Refinement of the goals and
> strategies.
> > Clearly a
> > >>>> serious discussion has to refine
> these
> > before we can do much
> > >>>> else.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 4) Think carefully about what other
> system
> > scientists we
> > >>>> can drag into this project. Go ahead
> and
> > recruit those you
> > >>>> can. Make lists of those you think
> might
> > be useful but that
> > >>>> you don't have personal
> connections
> > with.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> A NOTE ON ME
> > >>>> I spent eight years teaching admin.
> in
> > colleges of
> > >>>> education, then ten years in in 
> teaching
> > engineering
> > >>>> management. I was then forced out of
> the
> > university for
> > >>>> failing at TV teaching. I also had
> careers
> > in software
> > >>>> development (mostly with very large
> > systems) and community
> > >>>> development. The last ten years I
> mostly
> > built additions to
> > >>>> homes and recently became a novelist
> > (discovered fiction is
> > >>>> a hell of a lot harder than technical
> > writing!). All this is
> > >>>> by way of saying that I will have
> zero
> > credibility with
> > >>>> government decision makers and that
> quite
> > obviously someone
> > >>>> else is going to have to be the
> public
> > face for this
> > >>>> project. This might not be an issue,
> it
> > might well be that
> > >>>> the best public face for the project
> will
> > become obvious as
> > >>>> we proceed. On the other hand, I
> often
> > think of Thomas
> > >>>> Jefferson's comment that any
> > politician who wants the
> > >>>> job is thereby disqualified because
> he
> > will then make
> > >>>> decisions our of a context of
> preserving
> > his position
> > >>>> instead of a context of the common
> good.
> > So this is
> > >>>> something to keep in the back of your
> mind
> > as we proceed.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> PARTING SHOT
> > >>>> This obviously can only be done if a
> group
> > of us step up to
> > >>>> do it. Now is the time! And you are
> the
> > One! Take one step
> > >>>> forward if you are willing to help
> save
> > the world ....
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Grace and Peace,
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Barry
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> What i have not yet seen is any large
> > number of people
> > >>>> explicitly volunteering to do much
> about
> > it.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>
> > ===================================================
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
> > >>>> [log in to unmask]
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 757-692-6673
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Cybernetica Press at
> > www.cyberneticapress.com
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> "It's not how much you do -
> > it's how much love
> > >>>> you put in it.... Do small things
> with
> > great love."
> > >>>>            --- Mother Teresa ---
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> The true warrior may be killed, but
> he can
> > not be defeated.
> > >>>>   --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada
> ---
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty
> river.
> > >>>>       -- Inspired by the prophet Amos
> > 5:24--
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> "An enemy is a person whose
> story we
> > have not
> > >>>> heard."
> > >>>>           -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>> For more information go to:
> > www.metaphorum.org
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working
> > Environment (MCWE)
> > >>>> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> -
> > >>>>
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
> -
> > >>>>
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>>>
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>>
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> > >>
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum 
> > Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> > www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
> available at - 
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> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > 
> > >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum 
> > Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> > www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
> available at - 
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ===================================================
> > 
> > BARRY A CLEMSON
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 
> > 757-692-6673
> > 
> > Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "It's not how much you do - it's how much
> love
> > you put in it.... Do small things with great
> love."
> >             --- Mother Teresa ---
> > 
> > The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be
> defeated.
> >    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> > 
> > And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
> >        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> > 
> > 
> > "An enemy is a person whose story we have not
> > heard."
> >            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> > 
> > 
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > 
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to:  
> > www.platformforchange.org
> > 
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
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> > 
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
>       
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> To view the terms under which this email is distributed,
> please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
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> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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