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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: SB history

From:

"Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:55:58 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (757 lines)

Roger,

Thanks for the explanation.

So the old truth still applies: being right is a different ballgame than
getting it.

With most guru's one often finds a group of adorers that fully
understand him/her but fail to see why others can get the message. And,
as should be remembered, the message today is over 40 years old and
needs to be refreshed in todays terms.

Harold
 
Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 
> Roger Harnden
> Sent: zaterdag 6 december 2008 10:38
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: SB history
> 
> Well Harold,
> 
> Strictly speaking he might be said to have started his career 
> in the army......but, yes his meteoric success was in 
> management and drawing certain conclusions from his own use of OR.
> 
> But - a point that Rod makes (though others close to Stafford might
> disagree) - is that Stafford WAS NOT his own best advocate, 
> and (forgive me Allenna) did often give the impression that 
> his was a once- and-for-all solution to human affairs.
> 
> I think Frank is responding to the oft expressed frustration 
> from those of us who do find the model powerful and insghtful 
> (including, I imagine, yourself) and struggle with the WHY of 
> why this is so,
> 
> Roger
> On 5 Dec 2008, at 15:48, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
> 
> > All,
> >
> > Didn't Stafford start his career in business?
> >
> > I always have had the impression VSM grew out of "improving OR", 
> > started in a business department, when on to grow to company level, 
> > then Stafford left to become a consultant. The rest is 
> known history.
> >
> > Is this history correct?
> >
> > Harold
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Frank
> >> Sent: vrijdag 5 december 2008 16:40
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with 
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> I suppose that this is the result of unregulated capitalism.
> >>
> >> I don't think applying cybernetic to business systems is 
> >> insurmountable. We need to understand the dynamics of 
> organisations 
> >> and thus avoid being liquidated by them as we try to introduce the 
> >> concepts of cybernetics.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Roger Harnden" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:06 PM
> >> Subject: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread 
> with Frank
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank, I think it is all tangled up with concepts  like 
> 'paradigms, 
> >> 'dominant logic', 'horizon'.
> >>
> >> And the systemic tendency in our modern form of capitalism then 
> >> dominates and seeks to claim any middle ground in its 
> imposition of 
> >> things like 'political correctness' , 'freedom', democracy, 
> >> 'equality'
> >> all of which then become denatured, leaving the individuals who 
> >> genuinely aspire towards living such values, adrift.
> >>
> >> For a concrete example (and I'll make an effort to contain my own 
> >> sliding into jargon, here):
> >>
> >> A lot of us are old enough  to remember those debates in the 
> >> seventies and eighties about the nature of future work and 
> leisure; 
> >> the impact of ever increasing automation etc. We all did 
> our bit of 
> >> reading of Toffler, Barry Sherman, Giles Merritt etc. And 
> I, for one 
> >> (because I am intrinsically the sort of lost spirit to 
> which Stefan 
> >> refers), genuinely looked forward to a future in which 
> time spent on 
> >> paid work became less and time spent on leisure (unpaid 
> work) became 
> >> more.
> >> Because, I intuited that the SURPLUS created by the excess 
> would not 
> >> flow into unregulated money markets and service industries created 
> >> specifically to soak up such excess, but would flow towards what I 
> >> call HUMAN values - welfare, education, health, sustainable 
> >> development, dissemination of wealth world-wide.
> >>
> >> The truly shocking thing to me in the current crisis, is 
> that we have 
> >> all been made aware of the fantastically enormous scale of 
> that money 
> >> squirrelled away into a more-or-less closed system, called 'the 
> >> markets' 9which, ironiocally, are nothing to do with our 
> traditional 
> >> view of markets, in which people of all sorts came 
> together socially, 
> >> to present and exchange goods and services to one another. 
> As we all 
> >> now know, automation did in fact generate enormous surplus,. It is 
> >> now real (not speculative) and in amounts far exceeding 
> what we then 
> >> dreamt, or what anyone has been telling citizens. And, as we have 
> >> come to witness the real scale of these accrued surplus' 
> it is truly 
> >> horrific and INHUMAN to see what a small ration would be needed to 
> >> revolutionise many many aspects of many many societies 
> world-wide, as 
> >> well as our own. But this is still treated as a 'blindspot' in our 
> >> social and economic discourse.
> >>
> >> So in fact what we have in terms of our economic social 
> organisation, 
> >> is formal social organisations becoming filled with more and more 
> >> people (even though, historically speaking there are less and less 
> >> employees), doing increasingly overlapping tasks. 
> Organisations are 
> >> becoming ever more SPONGY, unaccountable and inhuman. The 
> >> unaccountability is because (just like the unaccounted and 
> invisible
> >> funds) no one wants to expose the SPONGINESS (think of baby P etc).
> >>
> >> And, so we are in an economic climate where everyone (in whatever
> >> profession) feels the need to work harder and harder, yet 
> cover more 
> >> and more things, and do worse and worse at their core job, because 
> >> they are spread so thin - instead of a situation -0surely 
> more human 
> >> - in which people are able to spend more focused time on 
> their core 
> >> occupation because more people are employed to take account of the 
> >> variety of tasks needing to be done well in a coordinated fashion.
> >>
> >> At the same time, we have NO increase in LEISURE time - 
> though we do 
> >> have  a massive increase in LEISURE SPEND.
> >>
> >> So, Stefan, my Karma might have been bad, but so has been 
> the karma 
> >> for our present economic, social national and 
> international systems.
> >>
> >> And, Frank, I do not think this is confronting cybernetics with an 
> >> insurmountable challenge, because I think it can be captured 
> >> (indicated - GSB)_ and defined (distinguished - GSB), and 
> addressed 
> >> through various aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once more, 
> the issue 
> >> of the impact of cybernetics is, more, I believe to do with our 
> >> confidence as to our identity, and a more clearly 
> ennunciated message 
> >> (inside our community and outside to the world) about what we 
> >> actually DO. This concerns languaging, as we have variously talked 
> >> about over the years, including the specific terms used, 
> for example, 
> >> about the various VSM systems.
> >>
> >> Roger
> >> On 4 Dec 2008, at 23:39, Frank wrote:
> >>
> >>> Roger,
> >>> thanks for a powerful and interesting reply.
> >>>
> >>> There's not much more that I can add to it.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose on one level when I wade through the academese I
> >> see  myself as
> >>> outside but when I'm writing as here, I see myself as
> >> inside. Although I
> >>> may come across as critical of academese, I'm  critical in
> >> the context of
> >>> is there going to be steps to get  cybernetics out to
> >> businesses and
> >>> businessmen?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe it's a case of a ferment. Where something practical
> >> emerges  out of
> >>> the theorising and then this is taken to the "masses" so to
> >> speak. By
> >>> practical I mean something that can be used by 
> consultants  as they 
> >>> implement the principles of cybernetics.
> >>>
> >>> But of course there will be massive problems. Organisation
> >> man will  not
> >>> take kindly to cybernetics. Take the Law of Requisite
> >> Variety.  It's true
> >>> that knowledge is power. In this case knowledge of the
> >> processes of an
> >>> organisation is also responsibility. Which means  that when
> >> something ends
> >>> in disaster no one can say "I didn't know  what was
> >> happening". So proper
> >>> controls a la Law of Requisite  Variety will be fiercely
> >> resisted by all,
> >>> right down to the shop  floor.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Frank
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Harnden"
> >> <[log in to unmask]
> >>>>
> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:52 AM
> >>> Subject: Metaphorum Identity - outside and inside
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Frank,
> >>>
> >>> I think this relates to Javier's words on S3/S4 activities of the 
> >>> Metaphorum community. As he indicates, RH is clearly S4, and has 
> >>> littler interest unless forced, in moving from that
> >> identity. The only
> >>> problem is that there needs to be further S3 input - not 
> that RH S4 
> >>> ceases or becomes S3. And I think you are proposing the
> >> need for that
> >>> in a particular domain (in other words, in some such thing as 
> >>> LISTSERVE).
> >>>
> >>> Your comparison may or may not be apposite, and as we have both 
> >>> indicated it might be tackled by one of two main ways:
> >>>
> >>> 1. clearer, more accessible language 2. a different listserve.
> >>>
> >>> However, a real issue, indicated by this very interaction between 
> >>> myself and you, is that the advise (from you) is advice
> >> from outside,
> >>> as it were. In other words, though participating you are
> >> adopting the
> >>> position of an outsider to something that HAS insiders. This is a 
> >>> fascinating issue of Boundaries (which Russell has 
> commented on in a 
> >>> somewhat different context in the wiki).
> >>>
> >>> Because, over the months and years, this sort of mixed 
> dialogue has 
> >>> been quite regular. Now I don't know whether this is
> >> characteristic of
> >>> this sort of forum. or pathological (in other words) indicating 
> >>> something wrong with this particular forum). You are 
> talking with me 
> >>> as if I am an INSIDER, but, Frank, I am talking with you 
> as also an 
> >>> INSIDER. This is a fascinating instance of the play of 
> structure and 
> >>> organisation in practice (M&V). The shifting configurations of 
> >>> structure in this instance are individuals coming and going, and 
> >>> through their coming and going and recurrent 
> interactions, coupling 
> >>> Metaphorum to a niche (that itself is instanced by
> >> individuals coming
> >>> and going). However, for the OBSERVER (in this case RH 
> and FW) there 
> >>> is a meta-level coupling (In Pasks's language 
> CONVERSATION) in which 
> >>> the two individuals CHOOSE their operational reality in a Spencer 
> >>> Brown manner. In this first instance, you are Choosing outside 
> >>> Metaphorum which has RH as inside; but I am choosing inside
> >> Metaphorum
> >>> as including FW).
> >>>
> >>> For those practitioners amongst us, this should be quite
> >> valuable and
> >>> interesting in indicating new tools and methods, because, 
> guys, it 
> >>> goes on all the time in terms of social organisations 
> which are in 
> >>> some shape or form 'organisationally' closed, but 
> 'informationally'
> >>> open.
> >>>
> >>> So there's a good old paradox. Are you in or are you out?
> >> Is RH in or
> >>> is he out?
> >>>
> >>> Now, for me (and I am not saying this is the case for others) the 
> >>> present LISTSERVE should service this ambiguity, because 
> that domain 
> >>> of uncertainty is at the heart of any learning domain. 
> But you are 
> >>> 100% correct, that a learning domain is very different from
> >> a sales or
> >>> marketing domain.
> >>>
> >>> Roger
> >>>
> >>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:57, Roger Harnden wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yes,
> >>>>
> >>>> I suppose what I am saying is that there should be another
> >> space   that
> >>>> IS explicitly outward facing, but that LISTSERVE members
> >> have   access to
> >>>> for their outwardfacingness.
> >>>>
> >>>> Or doesn't that make sense?
> >>>> Roger
> >>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:23, Frank wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Roger,
> >>>>> agreed. I was on the Complex-M listserv for some years. It was 
> >>>>> intimate and personal and we had our rows like any family
> >> :-) and   it
> >>>>> was a great mix of professioanals, academics and managers
> >> and  we  for
> >>>>> the most part all spoke in a clear language and those
> >> that  didn't were
> >>>>> from time to time pulled up on it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a platform for
> >> individuals to
> >>>>> launch themselves."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unless you are going to plan a separate listserv along
> >> the above   line
> >>>>> you will not get much interest from business. IMO anyway.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Harnden"
> >>>>> <[log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:15 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Toward a viable economy #2
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should Listseve be that 'outward facing' space? Isn't and
> >> shouldn't
> >>>>> LISTSERVE be something more intimate and personal, but 
> provide the 
> >>>>> platform for individuals to launch themselves?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ROger
> >>>>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:01, Frank wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I think it was John Warfield that spoke of context, 
> content and 
> >>>>>> process. So which comes first?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Will the content determine the context and process?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Will the context determine the content and process?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Will the process determine the content and context?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As regards a new Listserv, could it be a place where
> >> everything  is
> >>>>>> discussed in clear English? The reason being that in order  to 
> >>>>>> succeed in this project we need to be able to attract
> >> businessmen  at
> >>>>>> all levels.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "BARRY A CLEMSON"
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:04 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Toward a viable economy #2
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The big question is "how do we get cybernetic control
> >> systems  into
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> discussion for reforming the world financial system?"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> All of us, me too, have been pretty much wringing our
> >> hands "woe is
> >>>>>> me" I don't know how to get anybody to listen. Enough of
> >> that   crap. I
> >>>>>> don't want to have to tell my grandchildren that I didn't try.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We need to systematically see whom we can recruit to
> >> build  support
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> this effort. There are two different levels of support
> >> we can  ask
> >>>>>> for:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) the world needs management cybernetics, or, as a fall-back 
> >>>>>> position
> >>>>>> 2) the insights of cybernetics/systems/feedback loops provide 
> >>>>>> powerful tools for designing regulatory systems that 
> would be far
> >> superior  to
> >>>>>> what we have now.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Clearly we would like people to stand up and say we need
> >> management
> >>>>>> cybernetics. But there are a lot of super-stars out
> >> there (Russell
> >>>>>> Ackoff, Peter Senge, Jay Forrester, John Warfield) who
> >> will   certainly
> >>>>>> support the second and that would be a big step.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We have at least a couple of months before people 
> start seriously 
> >>>>>> thinking about what sort of controls should be put into
> >> place on  the
> >>>>>> global financial system. For at least a few months
> >> everyone will be
> >>>>>> too busy trying to put out fires to even think about a
> >> new control
> >>>>>> system.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Crises bring out both the best and worst in people.
> >> Therefore,   hoping
> >>>>>> for the best, I think we should try to think of
> >> superstars that we
> >>>>>> might possibly enlist in our campaign. The worst that
> >> will happen  is
> >>>>>> that they will say no.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have been out of academia for ten years so I am 
> woefully out of 
> >>>>>> date, but here is my initial brainstorm of people we
> >> should try to
> >>>>>> enlist:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Russell Ackoff
> >>>>>> Peter Senge
> >>>>>> Jay Forrester
> >>>>>> Jay Forrester, Jr, some years back was head of research
> >> for a  big  oil
> >>>>>> company and was doing System Dynamics for them Chuck Keating, 
> >>>>>> former president of Engineering
> >> Management  Society  and
> >>>>>> my PhD student and later my colleague.
> >>>>>> Bill Reckmeyer has lots of contacts all over the place John 
> >>>>>> Sutherland Stuart Umpleby has a very effective laid back style 
> >>>>>> that
> >> encourages
> >>>>>> people to try new things and Stuart is in DC Gordon Pask's old 
> >>>>>> contacts in the US military Warren Buffet (yes, that Buffet) 
> >>>>>> George Soros (was once supportive of Friedman and later became 
> >>>>>> critical of him) Paul Krugman, nobel laureate in Economics and 
> >>>>>> NYTimes columnist
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now, I have a couple of suggestions for your
> >> consideration (please
> >>>>>> improve upon all of this - I consider everything I have
> >> said  here  as
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> starting point that I hope the rest of you will chew up
> >> and   improve).
> >>>>>> That said, I suggest:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - a new list serve dedicated to trying to 1) get these
> >> ideas  into  the
> >>>>>> conversation and 2) designing the outlines of a new
> >> control system
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - everyone of us should brainstorm possible allies to
> >> get the ideas
> >>>>>> considered. Then we should all help think about how to
> >> contact  these
> >>>>>> people. For instance, I know Ackoff but haven't spoken
> >> to him in   more
> >>>>>> than 20 years so I am unlikely to be the best one to
> >> approach him).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Barry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Oh, boy. Fear and trembling. I feel like Gandalf 
> confronting the
> >>>>>> balrog: "I'm already tired"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ===================================================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
> >>>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 757-692-6673
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put
> >> in it.... Do
> >>>>>> small things with great love."
> >>>>>>        --- Mother Teresa ---
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
> >>>>>> --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
> >>>>>>   -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
> >>>>>>       -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> >> (MCWE) go  to:
> >>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008 Tested on: 
> 03/12/2008 
> >>>>>> 22:27:18 avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> >>>>>> http://www.avast.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> >> (MCWE) go  to:
> >>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> >> (MCWE) go to:
> >>>>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---
> >>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008 Tested on: 
> 03/12/2008 
> >>>>> 23:17:51 avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> >>>>> http://www.avast.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> >> (MCWE) go to:
> >>>>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>>
> >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment 
> (MCWE) go to:
> >>>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>>
> >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>
> >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> >>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>
> >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>
> >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008 Tested on: 04/12/2008 
> >>> 19:21:03 avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> >>> http://www.avast.com
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>
> >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> >>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>
> >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>
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> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>
> >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> >> www.platformforchange.org
> >>
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> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>
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> >> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> >> Virus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 04/12/2008 Tested on: 05/12/2008 
> >> 13:40:17 avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> >> http://www.avast.com
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>
> >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment 
> (MCWE) go to:  
> >> www.platformforchange.org
> >>
> >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>
> >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >>
> >
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> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) 
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> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
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> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law.

If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message.

Thank you for your co-operation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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