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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: is there anyone out there????

From:

BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:09:55 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (243 lines)

Stephen,

Thank you - I stand corrected.

Barry
On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Stephen Davies wrote:

> Hi Barry,
>
> For the record, it is more appropriate to refer to the original
> inhabitants of what is now known as Canada, as Aboriginal or First
> Nations people.
>
> Given the historic injustices perpetrated upon these peoples, it's
> imperative for us to refer to them using their preferred names.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stephen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BARRY A
> CLEMSON
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: is there anyone out there????
>
> Harold,
>
> I do not believe that Stafford failed in applying the VSM to society.
> In the case of Chile in particular the project only lasted 18 months
> before the coup and had some notable successes in that short time. And
> the coup was instigated and funded by the CIA and was unrelated to the
> work Stafford did. Also, Stafford did some very interesting work with
> Canadian Indian tribes.
>
> IMHO, the VSM applies very well to governments and societies. The VSM
> is a framework for viability, not for corporations or any other
> particular form of entity.
>
> You do raise a good question tho, "Where doesn't Stafford's work
> apply?" The answer to this depends upon which aspects of the work: The
> VSM doesn't say much about the process of planning, but Syntegration
> does. Neither Syntegration nor the VSM say much about how one tries to
> understand the inner workings of some complex process, but Decision
> and Control does in the sections on modeling. Staffords work provides
> very powerful tools for an immense range of situations and purposes.
>
> Having said that, i also think that there are other critical tools/
> frameworks that need to be used. For instance, Ackoff's idealized
> planning is a critically important methodology. And Ackoff's circular
> organization is a way to make large organizations both more effective
> and more democratic. Further, both idealized planning (as a VSM system
> 4 methodology) and the circular organization (as a way of organizing a
> corporation or government entity) are completely compatible with the
> VSM. I don't know of anyone ever trying this, but I have thought for
> years that the circular organization would be a management structure
> that would facilitate the use of the VSM.
>
> Barry
>
> On Dec 2, 2008, at 2:36 AM, Garderen, Harold van wrote:
>
>> Like many others that responded thus far, I'm interested and try to  
>> do
>> some collaborative work at time.
>>
>> One thing worries me and that is the - at times - almost
>> fundamentalistic focus on Stafford. A few questions:
>>
>> * Where doesn't Staffords work apply?
>> * What progress have other made in the meantime.
>> * What of that work can we integrate to make more VSM ideas readable
>> in
>> todays terms.
>> * Isn't VSM used outside its validity boundaries when applied to
>> society
>> (Stafford failed there)
>>
>> And the most vital one:
>>
>> * How do we achieve 200,000+ page views a day on the wiki?
>>
>> One suggestion: find better names (and use them) for S1-S5. Nobody
>> will
>> understand that for a long, long time.
>>
>> This work is in dear need of newbies. So go and wiki!
>>
>> Harold
>>
>> Now blogging at http://fragmentedliving.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>>> Roger Harnden
>>> Sent: maandag 1 december 2008 23:21
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: is there anyone out there????
>>>
>>> Is anyone interested in the wiki??? I know the few who are,
>>> but how about others?? Or is it just not of interest; is it a
>>> pile of shit; is it irrelevant to other people's needs; is it
>>> difficult to engage in??????
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>>> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged,
>> confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable  
>> law.
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible
>> for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are
>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
>> this communication is strictly prohibited.
>>
>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the
>> sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message.
>>
>> Thank you for your co-operation.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> ===================================================
>
> BARRY A CLEMSON
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 757-692-6673
>
> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>
>
>
> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do
> small things with great love."
>             --- Mother Teresa ---
>
> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>
> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>
>
> "An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
>            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



===================================================

BARRY A CLEMSON
[log in to unmask]

757-692-6673

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
small things with great love."
             --- Mother Teresa ---

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--


"An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard."
            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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