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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with Frank

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:17:27 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (904 lines)

Dear Harold,

Stafford probably began his career in the army where he started using his university year's study of logic, mathematics, statistics, philosophy and psychology ending up as staff captain/intelligence.

From then he went into the steel industry where he spent thirteen years, then onto the Sigma consultancy, then to International Publishing and finally to independent consultancy.  Along the way were various visiting professorships and lots of writing and talking.

But, certainly, his whole approach had one foot in practicality with one foot in theory with aesthetic and spiritual considerations underlying both.  He also tried to find a balance between being accessible and saying exactly what he wanted to say. 

I often wondered if the fluidity of his writing and speaking sometimes didn't carry people along in such a way that they reached the end having taken pleasure in the journey but not having much idea how they'd got there. In contrast, if the reading material was something where you had to hack your way through the brush, you might stand a good chance of absorbing the meaning although with less pleasure.    

Allenna


--- On Fri, 12/5/08, Garderen, Harold van <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Garderen, Harold van <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in thread with Frank
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:48 AM
> All,
> 
> Didn't Stafford start his career in business?
> 
> I always have had the impression VSM grew out of
> "improving OR", started
> in a business department, when on to grow to company level,
> then
> Stafford left to become a consultant. The rest is known
> history.
> 
> Is this history correct?
> 
> Harold
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Frank
> > Sent: vrijdag 5 december 2008 16:40
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in
> thread 
> > with Frank
> > 
> > I suppose that this is the result of unregulated
> capitalism.
> > 
> > I don't think applying cybernetic to business
> systems is 
> > insurmountable. We need to understand the dynamics of 
> > organisations and thus avoid being liquidated by them
> as we 
> > try to introduce the concepts of cybernetics.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Harnden"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:06 PM
> > Subject: little rant prompted by Stefan, though in
> thread with Frank
> > 
> > 
> > Frank, I think it is all tangled up with concepts 
> like 'paradigms,
> > 'dominant logic', 'horizon'.
> > 
> > And the systemic tendency in our modern form of
> capitalism then
> > dominates and seeks to claim any middle ground in its
> imposition of
> > things like 'political correctness' ,
> 'freedom', democracy, 'equality'
> > all of which then become denatured, leaving the
> individuals who
> > genuinely aspire towards living such values, adrift.
> > 
> > For a concrete example (and I'll make an effort to
> contain my own
> > sliding into jargon, here):
> > 
> > A lot of us are old enough  to remember those debates
> in the seventies
> > and eighties about the nature of future work and
> leisure; the impact
> > of ever increasing automation etc. We all did our bit
> of reading of
> > Toffler, Barry Sherman, Giles Merritt etc. And I, for
> one (because I
> > am intrinsically the sort of lost spirit to which
> Stefan refers),
> > genuinely looked forward to a future in which time
> spent on paid work
> > became less and time spent on leisure (unpaid work)
> became more.
> > Because, I intuited that the SURPLUS created by the
> excess would not
> > flow into unregulated money markets and service
> industries created
> > specifically to soak up such excess, but would flow
> towards what I
> > call HUMAN values - welfare, education, health,
> sustainable
> > development, dissemination of wealth world-wide.
> >
> > The truly shocking thing to me in the current crisis,
> is that we have
> > all been made aware of the fantastically enormous
> scale of that money
> > squirrelled away into a more-or-less closed system,
> called 'the
> > markets' 9which, ironiocally, are nothing to do
> with our traditional
> > view of markets, in which people of all sorts came
> together socially,
> > to present and exchange goods and services to one
> another. As we all
> > now know, automation did in fact generate enormous
> surplus,. It is now
> > real (not speculative) and in amounts far exceeding
> what we then
> > dreamt, or what anyone has been telling citizens. And,
> as we have come
> > to witness the real scale of these accrued
> surplus' it is truly
> > horrific and INHUMAN to see what a small ration would
> be needed to
> > revolutionise many many aspects of many many societies
> world-wide, as
> > well as our own. But this is still treated as a
> 'blindspot' in our
> > social and economic discourse.
> > 
> > So in fact what we have in terms of our economic
> social organisation,
> > is formal social organisations becoming filled with
> more and more
> > people (even though, historically speaking there are
> less and less
> > employees), doing increasingly overlapping tasks.
> Organisations are
> > becoming ever more SPONGY, unaccountable and inhuman.
> The
> > unaccountability is because (just like the unaccounted
> and invisible
> > funds) no one wants to expose the SPONGINESS (think of
> baby P etc).
> > 
> > And, so we are in an economic climate where everyone
> (in whatever
> > profession) feels the need to work harder and harder,
> yet cover more
> > and more things, and do worse and worse at their core
> job, because
> > they are spread so thin - instead of a situation
> -0surely more human -
> > in which people are able to spend more focused time on
> their core
> > occupation because more people are employed to take
> account of the
> > variety of tasks needing to be done well in a
> coordinated fashion.
> > 
> > At the same time, we have NO increase in LEISURE time
> - though we do
> > have  a massive increase in LEISURE SPEND.
> >
> > So, Stefan, my Karma might have been bad, but so has
> been the karma
> > for our present economic, social national and
> international systems.
> > 
> > And, Frank, I do not think this is confronting
> cybernetics with an
> > insurmountable challenge, because I think it can be
> captured
> > (indicated - GSB)_ and defined (distinguished - GSB),
> and addressed
> > through various aspects of cybernetic thinking. Once
> more, the issue
> > of the impact of cybernetics is, more, I believe to do
> with our
> > confidence as to our identity, and a more clearly
> ennunciated message
> > (inside our community and outside to the world) about
> what we actually
> > DO. This concerns languaging, as we have variously
> talked about over
> > the years, including the specific terms used, for
> example, about the
> > various VSM systems.
> > 
> > Roger
> > On 4 Dec 2008, at 23:39, Frank wrote:
> > 
> > > Roger,
> > > thanks for a powerful and interesting reply.
> > >
> > > There's not much more that I can add to it.
> > >
> > > I suppose on one level when I wade through the
> academese I 
> > see  myself as 
> > > outside but when I'm writing as here, I see
> myself as  
> > inside. Although I 
> > > may come across as critical of academese, I'm
>  critical in 
> > the context of 
> > > is there going to be steps to get  cybernetics
> out to 
> > businesses and 
> > > businessmen?
> > >
> > > Maybe it's a case of a ferment. Where
> something practical 
> > emerges  out of 
> > > the theorising and then this is taken to the
> "masses" so to 
> >  speak. By 
> > > practical I mean something that can be used by
> consultants  as they 
> > > implement the principles of cybernetics.
> > >
> > > But of course there will be massive problems.
> Organisation 
> > man will  not 
> > > take kindly to cybernetics. Take the Law of
> Requisite 
> > Variety.  It's true 
> > > that knowledge is power. In this case knowledge
> of the  
> > processes of an 
> > > organisation is also responsibility. Which means 
> that when 
> > something ends 
> > > in disaster no one can say "I didn't
> know  what was 
> > happening". So proper 
> > > controls a la Law of Requisite  Variety will be
> fiercely 
> > resisted by all, 
> > > right down to the shop  floor.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger
> Harnden" 
> > <[log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:52 AM
> > > Subject: Metaphorum Identity - outside and inside
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > I think this relates to Javier's words on
> S3/S4 activities of the
> > > Metaphorum community. As he indicates, RH is
> clearly S4, and has
> > > littler interest unless forced, in moving from
> that 
> > identity. The only
> > > problem is that there needs to be further S3
> input - not that RH S4
> > > ceases or becomes S3. And I think you are
> proposing the 
> > need for that
> > > in a particular domain (in other words, in some
> such thing as
> > > LISTSERVE).
> > >
> > > Your comparison may or may not be apposite, and
> as we have both
> > > indicated it might be tackled by one of two main
> ways:
> > >
> > > 1. clearer, more accessible language
> > > 2. a different listserve.
> > >
> > > However, a real issue, indicated by this very
> interaction between
> > > myself and you, is that the advise (from you) is
> advice 
> > from outside,
> > > as it were. In other words, though participating
> you are 
> > adopting the
> > > position of an outsider to something that HAS
> insiders. This is a
> > > fascinating issue of Boundaries (which Russell
> has commented on in a
> > > somewhat different context in the wiki).
> > >
> > > Because, over the months and years, this sort of
> mixed dialogue has
> > > been quite regular. Now I don't know whether
> this is 
> > characteristic of
> > > this sort of forum. or pathological (in other
> words) indicating
> > > something wrong with this particular forum). You
> are talking with me
> > > as if I am an INSIDER, but, Frank, I am talking
> with you as also an
> > > INSIDER. This is a fascinating instance of the
> play of structure and
> > > organisation in practice (M&V). The shifting
> configurations of
> > > structure in this instance are individuals coming
> and going, and
> > > through their coming and going and recurrent
> interactions, coupling
> > > Metaphorum to a niche (that itself is instanced
> by 
> > individuals coming
> > > and going). However, for the OBSERVER (in this
> case RH and FW) there
> > > is a meta-level coupling (In Pasks's language
> CONVERSATION) in which
> > > the two individuals CHOOSE their operational
> reality in a Spencer
> > > Brown manner. In this first instance, you are
> Choosing outside
> > > Metaphorum which has RH as inside; but I am
> choosing inside 
> > Metaphorum
> > > as including FW).
> > >
> > > For those practitioners amongst us, this should
> be quite 
> > valuable and
> > > interesting in indicating new tools and methods,
> because, guys, it
> > > goes on all the time in terms of social
> organisations which are in
> > > some shape or form 'organisationally'
> closed, but 'informationally'
> > > open.
> > >
> > > So there's a good old paradox. Are you in or
> are you out? 
> > Is RH in or
> > > is he out?
> > >
> > > Now, for me (and I am not saying this is the case
> for others) the
> > > present LISTSERVE should service this ambiguity,
> because that domain
> > > of uncertainty is at the heart of any learning
> domain. But you are
> > > 100% correct, that a learning domain is very
> different from 
> > a sales or
> > > marketing domain.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > >
> > > On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:57, Roger Harnden wrote:
> > >
> > >> Yes,
> > >>
> > >> I suppose what I am saying is that there
> should be another 
> > space   that 
> > >> IS explicitly outward facing, but that
> LISTSERVE members 
> > have   access to 
> > >> for their outwardfacingness.
> > >>
> > >> Or doesn't that make sense?
> > >> Roger
> > >> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:23, Frank wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Roger,
> > >>> agreed. I was on the Complex-M listserv
> for some years. It was 
> > >>> intimate and personal and we had our rows
> like any family 
> > :-) and   it 
> > >>> was a great mix of professioanals,
> academics and managers 
> > and  we  for 
> > >>> the most part all spoke in a clear
> language and those  
> > that  didn't were 
> > >>> from time to time pulled up on it.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by
> "a platform for 
> > individuals to 
> > >>> launch themselves."
> > >>>
> > >>> Unless you are going to plan a separate
> listserv along 
> > the above   line 
> > >>> you will not get much interest from
> business. IMO anyway.
> > >>>
> > >>> Frank
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Roger Harnden" 
> > >>> <[log in to unmask]
> > >>> >
> > >>> To:
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:15
> PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: Toward a viable economy #2
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Frank
> > >>>
> > >>> Should Listseve be that 'outward
> facing' space? Isn't and 
> > shouldn't
> > >>> LISTSERVE be something more intimate and
> personal, but provide the
> > >>> platform for individuals to launch
> themselves?
> > >>>
> > >>> ROger
> > >>> On 3 Dec 2008, at 23:01, Frank wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I think it was John Warfield that
> spoke of context, content and 
> > >>>> process. So which comes first?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Will the content determine the
> context and process?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Will the context determine the
> content and process?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Will the process determine the
> content and context?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As regards a new Listserv, could it
> be a place where 
> > everything  is 
> > >>>> discussed in clear English? The
> reason being that in order  to 
> > >>>> succeed in this project we need to be
> able to attract  
> > businessmen  at 
> > >>>> all levels.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Frank
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "BARRY A CLEMSON" 
> > >>>> <[log in to unmask]
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> To:
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008
> 10:04 PM
> > >>>> Subject: Toward a viable economy #2
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The big question is "how do we
> get cybernetic control 
> > systems  into 
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> discussion for reforming the world
> financial system?"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All of us, me too, have been pretty
> much wringing our 
> > hands "woe is
> > >>>> me" I don't know how to get
> anybody to listen. Enough of 
> > that   crap. I
> > >>>> don't want to have to tell my
> grandchildren that I didn't try.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We need to systematically see whom we
> can recruit to 
> > build  support 
> > >>>> for
> > >>>> this effort. There are two different
> levels of support 
> > we can  ask 
> > >>>> for:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1) the world needs management
> cybernetics, or, as a fall-back 
> > >>>> position
> > >>>> 2) the insights of
> cybernetics/systems/feedback loops provide 
> > >>>> powerful
> > >>>> tools for designing regulatory
> systems that would be far 
> > superior  to
> > >>>> what we have now.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Clearly we would like people to stand
> up and say we need 
> > management
> > >>>> cybernetics. But there are a lot of
> super-stars out 
> > there (Russell
> > >>>> Ackoff, Peter Senge, Jay Forrester,
> John Warfield) who 
> > will   certainly
> > >>>> support the second and that would be
> a big step.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We have at least a couple of months
> before people start seriously
> > >>>> thinking about what sort of controls
> should be put into 
> > place on  the
> > >>>> global financial system. For at least
> a few months 
> > everyone will be
> > >>>> too busy trying to put out fires to
> even think about a 
> > new control
> > >>>> system.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Crises bring out both the best and
> worst in people. 
> > Therefore,   hoping
> > >>>> for the best, I think we should try
> to think of 
> > superstars that we
> > >>>> might possibly enlist in our
> campaign. The worst that 
> > will happen  is
> > >>>> that they will say no.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have been out of academia for ten
> years so I am woefully out of
> > >>>> date, but here is my initial
> brainstorm of people we 
> > should try to
> > >>>> enlist:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Russell Ackoff
> > >>>> Peter Senge
> > >>>> Jay Forrester
> > >>>> Jay Forrester, Jr, some years back
> was head of research 
> > for a  big  oil
> > >>>> company and was doing System Dynamics
> for them
> > >>>> Chuck Keating, former president of
> Engineering 
> > Management  Society  and
> > >>>> my PhD student and later my
> colleague.
> > >>>> Bill Reckmeyer has lots of contacts
> all over the place
> > >>>> John Sutherland
> > >>>> Stuart Umpleby has a very effective
> laid back style that 
> > encourages
> > >>>> people to try new things and Stuart
> is in DC
> > >>>> Gordon Pask's old contacts in the
> US military
> > >>>> Warren Buffet (yes, that Buffet)
> > >>>> George Soros (was once supportive of
> Friedman and later became
> > >>>> critical of him)
> > >>>> Paul Krugman, nobel laureate in
> Economics and NYTimes columnist
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Now, I have a couple of suggestions
> for your 
> > consideration (please
> > >>>> improve upon all of this - I consider
> everything I have 
> > said  here  as 
> > >>>> a
> > >>>> starting point that I hope the rest
> of you will chew up 
> > and   improve).
> > >>>> That said, I suggest:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - a new list serve dedicated to
> trying to 1) get these 
> > ideas  into  the
> > >>>> conversation and 2) designing the
> outlines of a new 
> > control system
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - everyone of us should brainstorm
> possible allies to 
> > get the ideas
> > >>>> considered. Then we should all help
> think about how to 
> > contact  these
> > >>>> people. For instance, I know Ackoff
> but haven't spoken 
> > to him in   more
> > >>>> than 20 years so I am unlikely to be
> the best one to 
> > approach him).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Barry
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Oh, boy. Fear and trembling. I feel
> like Gandalf confronting the
> > >>>> balrog: "I'm already
> tired"
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> ===================================================
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BARRY A CLEMSON
> > >>>> [log in to unmask]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 757-692-6673
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cybernetica Press at
> www.cyberneticapress.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "It's not how much you do -
> it's how much love you put 
> > in it.... Do
> > >>>> small things with great love."
> > >>>>         --- Mother Teresa ---
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The true warrior may be killed, but
> he can not be defeated.
> > >>>> --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada
> ---
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And peace rolled down like a mighty
> river.
> > >>>>    -- Inspired by the prophet Amos
> 5:24--
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "An enemy is a person whose
> story we have not heard."
> > >>>>        -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment 
> > (MCWE) go  to: 
> > >>>> www.platformforchange.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> - 
> > >>>>
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
> - 
> > >>>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ---
> > >>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message
> clean.
> > >>>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0,
> 03/12/2008
> > >>>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 22:27:18
> > >>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008
> ALWIL Software.
> > >>>> http://www.avast.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative
> Working Environment 
> > (MCWE) go  to: 
> > >>>> www.platformforchange.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> - 
> > >>>>
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
> - 
> > >>>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> > >>>
> > >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment 
> > (MCWE) go to: 
> > >>> www.platformforchange.org
> > >>>
> > >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> > >>>
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > >>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ---
> > >>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> > >>> Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0,
> 03/12/2008
> > >>> Tested on: 03/12/2008 23:17:51
> > >>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL
> Software.
> > >>> http://www.avast.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> > >>>
> > >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment 
> > (MCWE) go to: 
> > >>> www.platformforchange.org
> > >>>
> > >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> > >>>
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > >>>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >> For more information go to:
> www.metaphorum.org
> > >>
> > >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> > >> www.platformforchange.org
> > >>
> > >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> > >>
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >>
> > >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > >>
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > >
> > > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> > > www.platformforchange.org
> > >
> > > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> > > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > >
> > > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> > > Virus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 03/12/2008
> > > Tested on: 04/12/2008 19:21:03
> > > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> > > http://www.avast.com
> > >
> > >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
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> > >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > 
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
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> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> > Virus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 04/12/2008
> > Tested on: 05/12/2008 13:40:17
> > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> > http://www.avast.com
> > 
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > 
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) 
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> > 
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> > 
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
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> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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