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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2008

Subject:

Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE

From:

allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:56:02 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (371 lines)

Dear All,

It is also appended to 'Wholism and the Frou Frou Slander' in October 1987 issue of  Kybernetes.

It reads:

"Hippocratic Oath for Scientists, Engineers and Technologists

I vow to practice my profession with conscience and dignity;

I will strive to apply my skills only with the utmost respect for the well-being of humanity, the earth and all its species;

I will not permit considerations of nationality, politics, prejudice or material advancement to intervene between my work and this duty to present and future generations;

I make this Oath solemnly, freely and upon my honour.

Obviously, he was the first signatory."

Allenna


--- On Fri, 12/5/08, ROD THOMAS <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: ROD THOMAS <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 9:48 AM
> the oath is on page 23 of 'How many grapes...'
>  
> rod thomas
> 
> --- On Fri, 5/12/08, Roger Harnden
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> From: Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, 5 December, 2008, 12:10 PM
> 
> 
> Yes, Joe, it's funny how often one comes back to
> ancient texts and wisdoms, and how little changes. both
> saddening and comforting (because it tells us that this
> thing called humanity is preoccupied with the same
> ethical/moral dilemmas as always (which, I suppose says
> something about the IDENTITY of that system called humanity,
> and the OPEN-ENDED nature of the journey!
> 
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
> On 5 Dec 2008, at 06:55, Joseph Truss wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Javier,
>  
> I also remember Stafford speaking about a 'Hippocratic
> Oath for Consultants' but don't recall a printed
> copy.  Your conundrum posed is exactly at the intersection
> of our past discussion about morals and ethics.  When the
> question cannot be answered by moral deduction it is an
> indication of a decision regarding personal ethics.  An
> orthogonality of Humanity, in Stefan's terms, that is
> the core of 'right action' - Arjuna on the
> battlefield, to quote from a text Stafford knew too well.
>  
> Best
>  Joseph Truss
> Abbey North Drummers / Open Futures / Team Syntegrity AG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Javier Livas <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:58:23 PM
> Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> 
> Roger, Barry, Allenna and all:
> 
> I seem to remember that Stafford mentioned or produced a
> letter with an oath were scientists plegded not to accept
> being used for ignoble purposes. Am I correct? Can we find
> this letter?
> 
> The bad use of the VSM has been a source of reflection for
> me for some time. One of the assumptions that the VSM makes
> which is a little off is that workers themselves have at
> least some notion of dignity to defend. I am not so sure, at
> least in Mexico, that this is true. Here you will find
> people willing to accept so much mistreatment it is
> terrifying. So given this working environment, where workers
> expect nothing but a meager salary (think tens of thousands
> of maquiladora jobs in the border town) it would be
> extremely simple for owner-bosses to abuse the VSM.
> 
> So then the ethical problem turns very nasty when
> confronted when you are confronted with the following
> choice: should I create a maquiladora and USE and exploit
> ignorant workers and improve their condition marginally
> while I make a profit, or should I let them to continue to
> make a living by mugging or narcotraficking? Sometimes the
> only moral choice is between bad and worse. What then?
> 
> Something practical to think a bit about,
> 
> Javier Livas
> 
> 
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Wright, Steve wrote:
> 
> > Ha its a real question sure enough but it crosses two
> interlocking
> > issues, ethics and efficacy. None of us would I hope
> be willing to
> > enforce a totalitarian model of control since we have
> a moral imperative
> > to build only systems as if people mattered.
> > 
> > Nevertheless, the organised knowledge to create the
> Guantanam techniques
> > was absed on this premise and came from the UK,
> specifically Northern
> > ireland where methods were evolved to attempt to break
> selected
> > internees within a few days. The hooding, white noise,
> dogs, being
> > dropped out of hovering heliocpters five feet above
> the ground, mocj
> > executions, use of drugs, beating to soften up, stoika
> positions, sleep
> > deprivation and boiler suit and goggles our ours - the
> techniques were
> > designed to mimic sensory deprivation...
> > 
> > But the holy grail of interrogation - confession
> without tell tale marks
> > to reveal how much prisoners were abused was not
> reached even though
> > most of these priosners were permanently damaged. But
> even if it had, we
> > were not dealing with a closed system here -
> information leaked out,
> > violence increased, more people had to be
> interred...So purely from a
> > mechamistic amoral perspective metaphorum members
> would not touch it
> > because the system was dysfunctional in bringing about
> the opposite of
> > its intended functionality. Put the two feedback loops
> together on
> > ethics and efficacy and we would/should
> whistleblow....
> > 
> > In the wider world however, we can anticipate little
> learning about such
> > factors has been achieved and when the next security
> crisis/ crackdown
> > emerges - anticipate more of the same via information
> exchange and
> > training exchanges through security assistance
> programmes...say in
> > India/Pakistan or both.....
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of BARRY A
> > CLEMSON
> > Sent: 04 December 2008 17:02
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: VSM and morals - CHOICE
> > 
> > 
> > I certainly hope the members of this community would
> not accept that
> > job. If they did, I would immediately remove myself.
> > 
> > Barry
> > On Dec 4, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Roger Harnden wrote:
> > 
> >> This follows an interaction with Allenna,
> >> 
> >> Models may well be neutral, but social systems
> aren't. Some are
> >> geared to torture individuals prior to any legal
> process in places
> >> like Guatanamo Bay; others are geared to support
> the vulnerable.
> >> These two social forms are DIFFERENT and loaded
> with VALUES.
> >> 
> >> From the standpoint of the US administration (as
> is made clear from
> >> the very recent confessions of the
> ex-interrogator), a 'more
> >> effective' Guatanamo Bay would process the
> captives in  way that
> >> helps deliver to the US administration its
> requirement to justify
> >> the rape a sovereign country n the pursuit of its
> own economic and
> >> political advantage. And, should one of us have
> been so 'lucky' as
> >> to be approached by the then US administration, i
> am sure we could
> >> readily apply the VSM to achieve that goal.
> >> 
> >> Therefore, might we not ask 'Is there any
> reason why the members of
> >> this community (Metaphorum) would not accept that
> job?'
> >> 
> >> Well, is there?????
> >> 
> >> Roger
> >> 
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >> 
> >> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working
> Environment (MCWE) go to:
> >> www.platformforchange.org
> >> 
> >> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >> 
> >> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> >> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ===================================================
> > 
> > BARRY A CLEMSON
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 
> > 757-692-6673
> > 
> > Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "It's not how much you do - it's how much
> love you put in it.... Do
> > small things with great love."
> >            --- Mother Teresa ---
> > 
> > The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be
> defeated.
> >    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
> > 
> > And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
> >        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
> > 
> > 
> > "An enemy is a person whose story we have not
> heard."
> >            -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman --
> > 
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > 
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to:
> > www.platformforchange.org
> > 
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > 
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > To view the terms under which this email is
> distributed, please go
> to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
> > 
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> > 
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
> (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> > 
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> > 
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
> - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at
> - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at
> - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web
> and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it
> now!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go
> to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive
> available at
> - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive
> of CYBCOM eList available at
> - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the
> Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available
> at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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