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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:16:15 +0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (247 lines)

Cool !
And what about their interest in the VSM ?
And is a possibility to communicate with them ?
Also look (below)at an interest to the VSM from Oracle

Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
--------

<< As I said on the last IOUC PDC call, I have had an approach from
Leonid Ototsky a Russian, who is an advocate of Stafford Beer's work.
He wonders if this is something Oracle may be interested in around
Fusion.
Thanksto Floyd I have a better understanding of this:
“First, understand that most of Stafford Beer's work (which is rooted in
Operations Research ), culminated in the
application of cybernetics to develop the Viable System Model ("VSM").
Loosely defined, cybernetics is the science of
control while management is the professional of control. The VSM suggests
that it is possible for systems to become
self-sustaining within a particular environment, and for those systems to
evolve and adapt to internal changes in that
environment . The IT concepts of adaptive and self-healing systems are
closely related to the VSM. The idea is that the
system can continuously collect feedback from the surrounding environment,
recognize changes as they occur, and
smoothly adapt to those changes in a smooth, controlled fashion rather
than requiring radical and disruptive change in
the system or reinvention of the system .”
Is there a methodology SIG this could be part of?
I have copied this to Leonid so he can see we are pursuing his interest.
Debra Lilley
Director - IOUC Product Development Committee Fusion Channel
Mobile 07867 822186
E-mail [log in to unmask]
>>



> I recently gave a talk on the VSM to the Asso. for Enterprise
> Architects in DC.  Apparently these people design the IT systems for
> govt agencies.  So, if you want to implement the VSM at a higher level
> than an ERP system provides, perhaps enterprise architecture is an
> alternative.
> Regards, Stuart Umpleby
>
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Stefan,
>> Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
>> But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a
>> superstructure
>> above the ERP ??
>>
>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Guys
>>>
>>> I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a completely
>>> different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really around to the
>>> depth they are now.
>>>
>>> Both are not software providers but consultants with little interest
>>> in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony with all
>>> that goes wrong with such things.
>>>
>>> There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use
>>> redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local parameters to
>>> be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating
>>> recursiveness etc.
>>>
>>> Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is about to change.
>>>
>>> Just a thought
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>> On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Leonid,
>>>>
>>>>         This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean
>>>> "integration" rather than "syntegration".
>>>>
>>>>         Oracle is a large scale database management system for
>>>> enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and
>>>> especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.
>>>>
>>>>         If Oracle does not choose to furnish some corporate funding
>>>> for your idea then SAP might.
>>>>
>>>>         As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his
>>>> VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be no barrier
>>>> to us.
>>>>
>>>>         Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in
>>>> expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling /
>>>> decision support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly easier
>>>> to make the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to actually
>>>> work like the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM sensitivity
>>>> and nuance to get any substantial gains from adding software.
>>>>
>>>>         (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some
>>>> money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing
>>>> opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an outcome
>>>> that merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the VSM.
>>>>
>>>>         Marketing people are into positioning follow-on sales.  When
>>>> the software does not improve operations very much (the far too
>>>> typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable
>>>> solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.
>>>>
>>>>         (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation should dare
>>>> be subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already robust
>>>> client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky
>>>> operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the Oracle/
>>>> SAP cure is tried.
>>>>
>>>>         (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of
>>>> whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP input.
>>>> Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM capabilities
>>>> and reputation if given half a chance.
>>>>
>>>> Ern Reynolds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> writes:
>>>> > Dear Colleagues.
>>>> > My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle Business
>>>> > School.
>>>> > He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle Applications. He
>>>> > took
>>>> > part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials module)
>>>> > under
>>>> > a Contract with Oracle Russia.
>>>> > Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an integration of
>>>> > the VSM
>>>> > with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the presentation in 2007
>>>> > -
>>>> > http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
>>>> > Supplement-1)
>>>> > . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University which is near
>>>> > to the
>>>> > Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM community and
>>>> > Anatoly
>>>> > there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>> >
>>>> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>> > www.platformforchange.org
>>>> >
>>>> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>> >
>>>> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
>>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational Learning
> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
> Washington, DC 20052
> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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