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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Open Source cybernetic management tools [Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP]

From:

John Waters <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:29:29 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (411 lines)

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 05:07 +0100, Nick Green wrote: 
> It's gotta be Open Software MySQL etc

There is an urgent need to make cybernetic management tools available,
accessible, affordable and (consequently) mainstream, better known and
more widely understood. These tools are far too important to be
restricted to the elites. Variety absorption needs to be distributed
more effectively and decentralized, and good will and enthusiasm are not
enough to achieve that.

The fastest way to get access to, and to engage participation from, a
large skilled software development force is through open source
software. That way everyone benefits - the communities who need the
tools to solve their real world problems, the consultants who are needed
by those communities to use the tools effectively and appropriately, and
even commercial enterprises looking to build solutions they can sell.

Most open source developments are essentially modular and accessible as
subsystems within something larger. Even the OpenOffice suite (which is
usually seen as a desktop office suite) can be run as a daemon alongside
DBMS (such as MySQL and PostgreSQL), web servers and a great diversity
of ready made systems waiting to be joined together with ad hoc "glue
code" (which can also be built from a diversity of ready made tools).

As a specific example, there is a need for a more effective
"Cyberfilter" - i.e. one appropriate for current use, to be integrated
with modern and future technology. Whether or not the original
Harrison-Stevens solution is the most appropriate, an opportunity is
being wasted by not drawing in expertise from diverse (and probably as
yet unidentified) sources. Given a definition of exactly what is needed,
required or expected of such a module, and abstraction layer (running as
a daemon) could be defined to allow the "plugging-in" of a diversity of
"back-end" solutions, written in a variety of languages - perhaps using
the well-known Bayes++ classes (C++) or R Bayesian libraries. It doesn't
really matter how the parts are sewn together, or out of what, as long
as they are effective. 

Such a module could form part of a far larger system (from real-time
display to scenario simulation, from alerting to system analysis),
comprising components built from most appropriate technology for any
particular purpose. Any Unix-like OS provides a natural environment for
putting these together in diverse ways, and almost all Open Source OS
are Unix-like. A big project could emerge from a lot of small and
individually useful tools.


> and gotta run wherever there is a numeric data stream being updated.
> 
Daemons, pipes, tunnels, channels, threads, ...

John :)
> 
> 
> Then take it from there. Nothing wrong with starting with Sales but
> any list of transactions can get things going. It takes a serious look
> at doing the Whole of Government to say that. Believe me.
>  
> Best
>  
> N.
>         ----- Original Message ----- 
>         From: Stefan Wasilewski 
>         To: [log in to unmask] 
>         Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:23 PM 
>         Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP 
>         
>         
>         snap:  
>         
>         
>         Will look at a couple of products and revert tomorrow to give
>         an idea of my thoughts. but one is PersonalBrain 4.5.1.5 bMac
>         MindMap product that has industry connectivity and a SDK that
>         allows integration. There are more. 
>         
>         
>         Stefan 
>         
>         On 1 Oct 2008, at 20:53, Garderen, Harold van wrote: 
>         
>         > Gents,
>         > 
>         > I'm sorry, but I'm afraid most regular ERP implementations
>         > don't contain the type of information one needs to build a
>         > VSM on. Data is often restricted to logistics operations,
>         > even if the scope contains sales, after-sales, etc.
>         > Marketing, R&D, HR, etc are missing 100% in most cases.
>         > 
>         > Even worse, data-warehouses are always a source of
>         > misintepretation. Hence the booming but ill-fated rise of BI
>         > tools and consulting-like services.
>         > 
>         > I suggest to approach the problem from the other side: what
>         > small process/system/training combi can be introduced (like
>         > Adobe has done with the Reader) to spread VSM practice
>         > widely despite the existance of large behemoths like Oracle
>         > and SAP?
>         > 
>         > With kind regards,
>         > 
>         > Harold van Garderen | Océ-Technologies B.V. | Senior
>         > Services Researcher | Document Services Valley
>         > Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 | The
>         > Netherlands
>         > T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |
>         >  [log in to unmask] |  www.oce.nl |  Trade register 12002662
>         > 
>         > 
>         > > -----Original Message-----
>         > > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
>         > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 
>         > > Leonid Ototsky
>         > > Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2008 21:22
>         > > To: [log in to unmask]
>         > > Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
>         > > 
>         > > Stefan,
>         > > Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
>         > > But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as
>         > > a 
>         > > superstructure above the ERP ??
>         > > 
>         > > Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>         > > 
>         > > 
>         > > 
>         > > 
>         > > > Guys
>         > > > 
>         > > > I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but
>         > > > for a 
>         > > completely 
>         > > > different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really 
>         > > around to the 
>         > > > depth they are now.
>         > > > 
>         > > > Both are not software providers but consultants with
>         > > > little 
>         > > interest 
>         > > > in support bespoke systems. What's more they're
>         > > > hegemony 
>         > > with all that 
>         > > > goes wrong with such things.
>         > > > 
>         > > > There are better systems that allow the VSM to be
>         > > > embedded and use 
>         > > > redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for
>         > > > local 
>         > > parameters to 
>         > > > be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so
>         > > > creating 
>         > > > recursiveness etc.
>         > > > 
>         > > > Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is 
>         > > about to change.
>         > > > 
>         > > > Just a thought
>         > > > 
>         > > > Stefan
>         > > > 
>         > > > On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>         > > > 
>         > > > > Dear Leonid,
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you
>         > > > > did mean 
>         > > > > "integration" rather than "syntegration".
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        Oracle is a large scale database management
>         > > > > system for 
>         > > > > enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in
>         > > > > the US and 
>         > > > > especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf,
>         > > > > Germany.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        If Oracle does not choose to furnish some 
>         > > corporate funding 
>         > > > > for your idea then SAP might.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on
>         > > > > seeing his 
>         > > > > VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should
>         > > > > be 
>         > > no barrier 
>         > > > > to us.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        Four related points of caution.  (a) My own
>         > > > > experience in 
>         > > > > expressing the VSM in software (using the insight
>         > > > > modeling 
>         > > / decision 
>         > > > > support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly 
>         > > easier to make 
>         > > > > the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to
>         > > > > actually 
>         > > work like 
>         > > > > the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM
>         > > > > sensitivity 
>         > > and nuance 
>         > > > > to get any substantial gains from adding software.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by
>         > > > > putting up some 
>         > > > > money, those firms will do so if it looks like a
>         > > > > marketing 
>         > > > > opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be
>         > > > > an 
>         > > outcome that 
>         > > > > merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as
>         > > > > the VSM.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        Marketing people are into positioning
>         > > > > follow-on 
>         > > sales.  When 
>         > > > > the software does not improve operations very much
>         > > > > (the far too 
>         > > > > typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the
>         > > > > inevitable 
>         > > > > solution suggested is buy more of their product and
>         > > > > services.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation 
>         > > should dare be 
>         > > > > subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An
>         > > > > already robust 
>         > > > > client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a
>         > > > > shaky 
>         > > > > operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when
>         > > > > the Oracle/ 
>         > > > > SAP cure is tried.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > >        (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and
>         > > > > control of 
>         > > > > whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle
>         > > > > or SAP input.
>         > > > > Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM 
>         > > capabilities and 
>         > > > > reputation if given half a chance.
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > Ern Reynolds
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > 
>         > > > > On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky 
>         > > <[log in to unmask]> writes:
>         > > > > > Dear Colleagues.
>         > > > > > My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the
>         > > > > > Newcastle 
>         > > Business 
>         > > > > > School.
>         > > > > > He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle 
>         > > Applications. He 
>         > > > > > took part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia
>         > > > > > (Financials 
>         > > > > > module) under a Contract with Oracle Russia.
>         > > > > > Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an 
>         > > integration of 
>         > > > > > the VSM with Oracle (the first interest I marked in
>         > > > > > the 
>         > > > > > presentation in 2007
>         > > > > > -
>         > > > > > http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
>         > > > > > Supplement-1)
>         > > > > > . A meeting could be organized in the Hull
>         > > > > > University 
>         > > which is near 
>         > > > > > to the Newcastle. Except the representatives of the
>         > > > > > VSM 
>         > > community 
>         > > > > > and Anatoly there must be some from the Oracle UK as
>         > > > > > well !!
>         > > > > > 
>         > > > > > 
>         > > > > > Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>         > > > > > 
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