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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle

From:

Nick Green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:59:57 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (289 lines)

Hi Harold,

Is XAMPP an improvement? Is Virtuemarkt a German name for the package or 
something else?

When I think of the hours I have spent installing and removing MySQl. PHP 
etc, as for all the crazy fuss about the DBMS- ychh. But I bet there are 
traces of old installs in my machine which will cause side effects in e.g. 
.net, where MS SQL is required..

There are problems with writing software by committee. Unnecessarily 
complicated structure, bloat,  feature creep, ridiculous ambiguous 
documentation come to mind. Life does not have to be like that.  I used to 
say "write the manual (note the singular) first and let a summary fit onto 
an A4 card". People smiled but it kept them focussed. We want a clear strong 
vision to implement "The Right Thing". We only want to reliably insert a 
password protected record into a remote computer (and get it back!). These 
days the constraints are thoroughly understood. Sound ergonomics and decent 
runtime for both users and developers has to come out of this eventually.

Best

N.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle


Well, I think the answer should be "a collective" not a person.

The first problem is "who can contribute".

* Who can download XAMPP/Virtuemarkt and install it on f.e. metaforum so
that "VSM goods" can be put in the market?
* Who has something to contribute?
      - F.e. a filter + a story how it was applied. What worked and what
not.
      - A small tool in XLS, f.e. diagnostic help + a "script" (sorry
for the word) to guide the "new recruit"
        in its attempts to use it for the first time.
* Who wants to voluteer to form a support group. This group can assist
"new recruits"

To me it seems the first problem is "getting more people started" and
support them from the current active community.

With kind regards,

Harold

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Leonid Ototsky
> Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 13:18
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
>
> Cool, Harold !
> Who will organize such Open Community ?
> It will be a great experiment "to promote" the McCulloch's
> "redundancy"
> which was used by Stafford at the System-5 level.
> There is a new possibility now in our "Web Era" try to
> implement this in the "VSM Society" .
>
> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>
> > Very well said. The way Guru's try to change the world
> never worked.
> > Sad for Stafford c.s., but given it was even true for guys
> like Hitler
> > eventually, even the most powerful can't.
> >
> > So what works? Well, to me it seems that "bottom up" has a better
> > chance. Look at Gates/Microsoft. They started at the bottom, their
> > stuff spread worldwide quickly. They were no guru's until AFTER the
> > fact and NEVER managed to change the world they created again ....
> >
> > I've said it more than once: why not start at the bottom:
> small tools,
> > small applications, WIDE diversity, let 100 zillion flowers grow in
> > SMB organizations. Forget the ugly behemoths, spread
> globally, become
> > viruslike, go grassroots, just like linux, xampp, but then for the
> > management of self-control. Document cases: no just
> technically, but
> > also process and spam it to find fertile ground elsewhere. Until we
> > reach the tipping point.
> >
> > Open source is not just a technical trick for code, it can also be
> > used to build an application-network, zillions of places
> where people
> > play with the tools, the stories, improve, steal, borrow,
> give, etc.
> > All that knowledge needs to be open source too. Have a look at how
> > www.cognitive-edge.com approaches this.
> >
> > Hey! We are the complexity masters right! If WE can't bring about
> > change to a small complex system like the world, who will
> believe us
> > when we say the world needs to change. We ARE the world, IN
> the world.
> >
> > Harold
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William
> > Livingston
> > Sent: maandag 6 oktober 2008 11:09
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Stafford Beer] and Oracle
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for providing another round of data points about
> the sociology
> > of inter-domain technology transfer. What is significant about the
> > vast collection of these experiences of passive/aggressive
> rejections,
> > over the ages, is that the creation of this ubiquitous response
> > remains undiscussed and unexamined. Where is the clarion
> call saying
> > "Hey, anybody see a pattern here? How come there are no contrary
> > examples?" None.
> >
> >
> >
> > Decades ago I made it a point to visit with the living
> greats in
> > systems think, including Stafford. Near the end all would say
> > something to the effect that - "Although my concepts have not yet
> > taken hold to any commensurate extent, in a hundred years or so
> > society would gradually get the message and the discipline
> of systems
> > think would become a cultural norm."  I noted these
> mentors, and their
> > mentors, had tormented endings - to a man.
> >
> >
> >
> > There is absolutely no shred of evidence that, given
> time, society
> > will gravitate towards what's best for its survival and
> advancement.
> > There is no compelling force towards enlightenment-based action.
> > Anyone can find the same miserable pattern of sabotage in the
> > literature of a century ago - Thorstein Veblen being but
> one example.
> > What is striking is that the behavioral attributes of
> institutions are
> > exactly the same, century in and century out - oblivious to
> > circumstances. The institutional rejection of VSM,
> wholesale, is but
> > one instance of the institutional aversion to intelligence-informed
> > management. Friday, USA citizens bailed out Wall St. to the
> tune of a
> > trillion dollars without once investigating by what means
> this global
> > emergency manifested, unforeseeable, overnight.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Oh, you had no idea on Friday when you reported solid
> financial
> > strength that by Monday your institution would be down $300
> billion?
> > No problem. Here's money for you to keep doing whatever you
> were doing.
> > After all, your $400 trillion in unregulated derivatives makes out
> > national budget look parsimonious."
> >
> >
> >
> > In view of this stunning measurement of institutional
> ideology, it
> > just doesn't seem likely that promoting VSM in the ways and
> means it
> > has been promoted will fare any better in the future. But, that's
> > another undiscussable.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
> > Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> > www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM
> > eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the
> > addressee and may contain information that is privileged,
> confidential
> > or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
> >
> > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof
> responsible for
> > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> > notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> > communication is strictly prohibited.
> >
> > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the
> > sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message.
> >
> > Thank you for your co-operation.
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> > www.platformforchange.org
> >
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>

This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law.

If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for 
delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited.

If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender 
immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message.

Thank you for your co-operation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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09:20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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