LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: [Fwd: Stafford Beer] and Oracle

From:

Stephen Davies <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:39:38 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

Hi Leonid,

My interpretation of Robin's response to you is that she is thinking VSM could be used internally to the Oracle product line to detect emerging performance problems in the database management system itself (hence the reference to database administrators (DBAs) and performance tuning).  This would represent a product-level application of VSM which is, I think, very different your initial intent.  

My understanding of your initial intent was there be some user-configurable set of enterprise-specific controls (homeostats) reflecting the critical elements of VSM (referred to as cyberfilters elsewhere) and that they would sit on top of Oracle (or SAP, or whatever) as a software-application level implementation (possibly as a middleware layer?).  Is this accurate?

If it is, you will need to reset the terms of the conversation with the Oracle user group rep (Debra).

Best regards,

Stephen Davies

-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leonid Ototsky
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 4:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [Fwd: Stafford Beer] and Oracle

Colleagues,
It is a reply from Oracle UK

Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
------------------ Forwarded -------------------
Subject:   Stafford Beer
From:       "Lilley Debra" <[log in to unmask]>
Date:   , 05  2008, 00:42
To:   [log in to unmask]
Copy: [log in to unmask]
            [log in to unmask]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leonid,
I know I was not able to give you the answer you were looking
for before but I have not forgotten you. I have been talking to friends
in the Oracle World and was introduced to Robyn who was good enough to
look at what you sent, and this is her response:



My 'message' is that variance normally exists in any system.  Some
variance is controllable, some is not but by designing our systems with
the expectation of variance, we can make them more resistant to
variation and therefore more robust.  My ideas on this come primarily
from Genichi Taguchi, but there's a smattering of other concepts from
classes in operations management/research and quality engineering in
there too. But I'm really just advocating that dba's approach the
management of database systems systematically and that they measure the
variation in system performance, as I think users are happier when they
know what to expect.

The level of change that Leonid seeks would be a much longer term
project and I think it would require involvement from Oracle. I bristled
a bit at section on alerts when the system is failing to achieve
performance - if anything, I think our industry relies on sending alerts
for problems rather addressing root cause and eliminating them.
However, can software be built to receive it's own alerts and adjust
itself accordingly?  If I understand correctly, this is the ultimate
goal for VSM which is essentially an artificial intelligence system.  (I
studied this a bit in school too - I had to build a small AI system for
a class, I'd forgotten all about that experience.)  While AI has made a
lot of progress since then, a system can only know what we tell it so
from my perspective, and Dr. Taguchi's, there will always some bit of
unknown and uncontrollable variation.

I would wager that somewhere inside of Oracle someone is already looking
at VSM or something like it. I've been following Graham Wood's
presentations for a while now as it seemed that with ASH and DBTime,
Oracle was beginning to provide the means to measure variance.  As for
Leonoid's quest, Oracle is advertising a self-tuning system, which could
be considered a step toward Viable Software. It would be interesting to
find out if any of Oracle's work had been inspired by Stafford Beer or
Dr. Herring's paper.  A methodology SIG, as you mentioned in your
response, could be helpful but I think it would need participation from
within Oracle to make it work, as Leonoid's area of research would need
to be taken into consideration at the earliest stages of design.

All in all, it's an interesting set of ideas, there is probably
potential in them but it's a big change and one that would need to come
from within Oracle.  Plus, there are many operations research theories
out there, a project like this should begin by identifying problems,
evaluating multiple methods and then determining which approach would
have the greatest likelihood of resolving them.



I haven't found a methodology SIG but still looking. Robyn and I are
meeting later this month and the Oracle gentleman she mentions will also
be there so perhaps we will be able to find out what Oracle is thinking.



I have seen your post on the web about my original response and am happy
for that to stay but would appreciate if you could remove my contact
details I am receiving an awful lot of Russian spam which may not be
connected but I would feel happier.



Fusion Applications are now well into development so perhaps things have
moved on from your original request but Fusion Applications is as much a
concept for a single user experience so any component in the future will
have a design element.



Debra Lilley

Deputy Chair - UK Oracle User Group

25 Years of Serving the Oracle Community

IOUC Product Development Committee & Fusion Channel



Mobile              07867 822186

E-mail           [log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>



------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------

For information on UKOUG visit www.ukoug.org <http://www.ukoug.org/>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------



Although this email was sent from my employer's mail system it should be
seen as coming from UKOUG.






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager