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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 4 Oct 2008 15:22:42 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

Agree with all you say, John. the (weak, I know) question is how might  
this be initiated??


Roger
On 4 Oct 2008, at 14:01, John Waters wrote:

> On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 10:56 +0100, Patrick Hoverstadt wrote:
>> Hi Barry
>>
>>> About 15 years ago I spent the better part of a year developing what
>>> I called a graphical interface for the VSM. It was an attempt to
>>> develop a database whose user interface was the VSM diagrams.
>>> Unfortunately, I  am a pretty lousy programmer and the resulting
>>> tool was not that good  (and it totally lacked the cyberfilter
>>> capability which I think is crucial.
>
> This is another example of a reason to modularize using open source
> development models.
>
> Those with the skills to produce accessible and meaningful graphical
> presentations are not generally those with the skills needed to  
> produce
> an effective cybferilter (for example) or to understand how the  
> various
> components can fit together to build a recursive structure of  
> arbitrary
> scale.
>
> Trying to do everything "in house" using the available (but not
> necessarily well-matched) resources is (imho) an very expensive,
> hit-and-miss approach. In contrast, an open development model  
> protected
> from closure (perhaps by using the GPL licence wherever possible) can
> draw on the vast, unidentified pool of skills available.
>
> Effort needs to be incentivized, so individual modules need to have
> fruitful application in a more flexible environment than that for  
> which
> they were conceived. That's why (for example) a flexible cyberfilter
> would be useful in a stand-alone desktop environment (one possible  
> form
> of the "user" side of the abstraction layer, placing a heavy burden on
> human components) as well as a networked daemon (another possible form
> of the "user" side of the abstraction layer, minimizing human
> involvement).
>
>> Similarly, we did a 3-D graphical VSM model as an interface, with the
>> graphical components (VSM sub-systems, linkages, components of the
>> environment etc.) expanding or contracting with the data. This was
>> from a database, but could be live feed. We did it as a proof of
>> concept, and I think it worked well for that, quite a lot of
>> methodology came out of it.
>>
> This could have been (and still could be) developed as an open source
> system, set loose in the wild to reproduce and evolve.
>
> There's little point in making humans do what machines do better when
> the humans have neither enough time nor sufficiently powerful tools to
> do the things that only humans can - those involving judgement,
> imagination, explanation, empathy, interaction with other humans, ...
>
>> BUT it is so far removed from where most of management is that nobody
>> was really interested. In fact a lot of VSM ers couldn’t get it –
>> though to others, it was blindingly obvious. A couple of interesting
>> observations:
>>
>> 1.    I really struggled to find enough / appropriate data from a
>> business to run it. There were massive black holes in the data.
>
> Might these holes have been filled in if the collection and filtering
> the data had been left to machinery (in which case would the machinery
> for collection and filtering have evolved without the machinery to act
> upon it (in which case would the machinery to act upon it have evolved
> without those humans who can act upon it ... ))?
>
>> 2.    The linkage of data to structure is forced on you if you use a
>> tool like this, whereas it isn’t if you use conventional dashboards,
>> and this has huge impact on the misattribution of performance data
>> (which I find is the rule, not the exception)
>>
>> 3.    It could handle a massive amount of data and display it in a
>> form that was easily accessible (to those that could “get it”) We
>> could show the ten year history of a company in 2 minutes. The
>> rendition into graphical form acts as an automatic perceptual filter.
>
> I agree entirely, and I the demonstration (I recall) was impressive.
>
> John :)
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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