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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

BARRY A CLEMSON <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:03:29 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (482 lines)

Stefan,


Absolutely, I totally agree.

I just wanted to emphasize the importance of experience in  
understanding the dynamics. Otherwise it is like trying to teach  
someone basketball or soccer strategy without them ever getting out on  
the playing field. You are very limited without actually getting out  
and experiencing the game.

Barry
On Oct 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Stefan Wasilewski wrote:

> Barry
>
> To me the VSM deals with functions and processes NOT processes alone  
> and there's the difference. Most people cannot see the difference  
> between a Function and a Process, indeed 90% of the banking and  
> insurance market believe that each are inter-changable!
>
> More later.
>
> Stefan
>
> On 3 Oct 2008, at 21:38, BARRY A CLEMSON wrote:
>
>> About 15 years ago I spent the better part of a year developing  
>> what I called a graphical interface for the VSM. It was an attempt  
>> to develop a database whose user interface was the VSM diagrams.  
>> Unfortunately, I am a pretty lousy programmer and the resulting   
>> tool was not that good (and it totally lacked the cyberfilter  
>> capability which I think is crucial.
>>
>> I have quite a lot of experience trying to get people to try the  
>> VSM in their organizations and am convinced that the right,  
>> automated tools would be a big help. I am very excited about the  
>> idea of an open-source effort to develop such tools.
>>
>> Some years ago when I was still in the academic world I went around  
>> and talked to those professors that i could find who were teaching  
>> about the VSM. I also talked with a number of engineers or  
>> entrepreneurs who used the VSM or some aspect of it. For instance,  
>> Jay Karlin used system two to great effect to help the navy  
>> schedule ships through shore repair facilities (these are enormous,  
>> very complicated operations with large numbers of different types  
>> of processes/shops). What I quickly discovered was that the folks  
>> who were actually using the VSM, getting their hands dirty with it  
>> so to speak, understood it extremely well. Those of us on the  
>> academic side who had mostly read about it and were trying to teach  
>> it, didn't understand the VSM nearly as well. I include me in with  
>> the academics who didn't understand the VSM as well as did the  
>> practicioners, and I had devoted an enormous amount of time to  
>> studying it (so much in fact that when Stafford was asked to do a  
>> book introducing his work, he told them to ask me). There is a  
>> lesson for us in this, I think.
>>
>> THE LESSON: the VSM deals with dynamics, with processes. it is very  
>> difficult to adequately TALK about dynamics/process. It is easy to  
>> understand dynamics/process when you experience it. This is why the  
>> engineers and managers USING the VSM understood it better than  
>> those of us trying to teach it.
>>
>> CONCLUSION: If we had, for instance, easy to use cyberfilter tools,  
>> we could get an organization started using them by simply choosing  
>> any handful of indicators that they thought might be useful and  
>> running them thru the statistical routines. Even if they chose very  
>> badly, this would be a good opening to then get them to think about  
>> what sort of models they are using to think about their  
>> organizational processes. What's needed, in my opinion, is a  
>> relatively easy way to get started thinking and working within the  
>> overall VSM framework and then introduce more of it at the  
>> organization gains insight and experience.
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2008, at 2:49 PM, Stuart Umpleby wrote:
>>
>>> The discussion following my talk on the VSM to the Asso. of  
>>> Enterprise
>>> Architects in DC (about 12 in the room and others listening  
>>> remotely)
>>> was along the lines of "interesting, intriguing, but how do you
>>> persuade people in organizations to take this approach."  I think  
>>> they
>>> saw it as risky, as outside the mainstream.  I said that the VSM can
>>> be used in "diagnosing" an organization as part of a periodic review
>>> and redesign.  This approach seemed to be well-received, but the
>>> overall concept was still new and unfamiliar.  I said that it is
>>> important to work with the idea over a period of months to become
>>> familiar with it.  I think they thought they could not get that much
>>> time for such an effort.  Haiping Luo, address above, who arranges
>>> lectures for this association, was interested in the VSM.  She may
>>> have thoughts on how to arrange one or more experiments.  Stuart
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:16 AM, Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Cool !
>>>> And what about their interest in the VSM ?
>>>> And is a possibility to communicate with them ?
>>>> Also look (below)at an interest to the VSM from Oracle
>>>>
>>>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> << As I said on the last IOUC PDC call, I have had an approach from
>>>> Leonid Ototsky a Russian, who is an advocate of Stafford Beer's  
>>>> work.
>>>> He wonders if this is something Oracle may be interested in around
>>>> Fusion.
>>>> Thanks to Floyd I have a better understanding of this:
>>>> "First, understand that most of Stafford Beer's work (which is  
>>>> rooted in
>>>> Operations Research ), culminated in the
>>>> application of cybernetics to develop the Viable System Model  
>>>> ("VSM").
>>>> Loosely defined, cybernetics is the science of
>>>> control while management is the professional of control. The VSM  
>>>> suggests
>>>> that it is possible for systems to become
>>>> self-sustaining within a particular environment, and for those  
>>>> systems to
>>>> evolve and adapt to internal changes in that
>>>> environment . The IT concepts of adaptive and self-healing  
>>>> systems are
>>>> closely related to the VSM. The idea is that the
>>>> system can continuously collect feedback from the surrounding  
>>>> environment,
>>>> recognize changes as they occur, and
>>>> smoothly adapt to those changes in a smooth, controlled fashion  
>>>> rather
>>>> than requiring radical and disruptive change in
>>>> the system or reinvention of the system ."
>>>> Is there a methodology SIG this could be part of?
>>>> I have copied this to Leonid so he can see we are pursuing his  
>>>> interest.
>>>> Debra Lilley
>>>> Director - IOUC Product Development Committee Fusion Channel
>>>> Mobile 07867 822186
>>>> E-mail [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I recently gave a talk on the VSM to the Asso. for Enterprise
>>>>> Architects in DC.  Apparently these people design the IT systems  
>>>>> for
>>>>> govt agencies.  So, if you want to implement the VSM at a higher  
>>>>> level
>>>>> than an ERP system provides, perhaps enterprise architecture is an
>>>>> alternative.
>>>>> Regards, Stuart Umpleby
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>> Stefan,
>>>>>> Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
>>>>>> But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a
>>>>>> superstructure
>>>>>> above the ERP ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a  
>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>> different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really around  
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> depth they are now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both are not software providers but consultants with little  
>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>> in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony with  
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> that goes wrong with such things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and  
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local  
>>>>>>> parameters to
>>>>>>> be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating
>>>>>>> recursiveness etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is about  
>>>>>>> to change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a thought
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Leonid,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean
>>>>>>>> "integration" rather than "syntegration".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Oracle is a large scale database management system for
>>>>>>>> enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and
>>>>>>>> especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      If Oracle does not choose to furnish some corporate  
>>>>>>>> funding
>>>>>>>> for your idea then SAP might.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his
>>>>>>>> VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be no  
>>>>>>>> barrier
>>>>>>>> to us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in
>>>>>>>> expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling /
>>>>>>>> decision support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly  
>>>>>>>> easier
>>>>>>>> to make the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to  
>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>> work like the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM  
>>>>>>>> sensitivity
>>>>>>>> and nuance to get any substantial gains from adding software.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some
>>>>>>>> money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing
>>>>>>>> opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an  
>>>>>>>> outcome
>>>>>>>> that merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as  
>>>>>>>> the VSM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Marketing people are into positioning follow-on sales.   
>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>> the software does not improve operations very much (the far too
>>>>>>>> typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable
>>>>>>>> solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation should dare
>>>>>>>> be subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already  
>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>> client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky
>>>>>>>> operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the  
>>>>>>>> Oracle/
>>>>>>>> SAP cure is tried.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of
>>>>>>>> whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP  
>>>>>>>> input.
>>>>>>>> Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM  
>>>>>>>> capabilities
>>>>>>>> and reputation if given half a chance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ern Reynolds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]>  
>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>>>>> My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle  
>>>>>>>>> Business
>>>>>>>>> School.
>>>>>>>>> He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle  
>>>>>>>>> Applications. He
>>>>>>>>> took
>>>>>>>>> part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials  
>>>>>>>>> module)
>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>> a Contract with Oracle Russia.
>>>>>>>>> Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an  
>>>>>>>>> integration of
>>>>>>>>> the VSM
>>>>>>>>> with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the presentation  
>>>>>>>>> in 2007
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf  
>>>>>>>>> (see
>>>>>>>>> Supplement-1)
>>>>>>>>> . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University which  
>>>>>>>>> is near
>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM community and
>>>>>>>>> Anatoly
>>>>>>>>> there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)  
>>>>>>>>> go to:
>>>>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
>>>>>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>>> to:
>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational  
>>>>> Learning
>>>>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>>>>> Washington, DC 20052
>>>>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational  
>>> Learning
>>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>>> Washington, DC 20052
>>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================================
>>
>> BARRY A CLEMSON
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 757-692-6673
>>
>> Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
>> small things with great love."
>>           --- Mother Teresa ---
>>
>> The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
>>  --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---
>>
>> And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
>>      -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



===================================================

BARRY A CLEMSON
[log in to unmask]

757-692-6673

Cybernetica Press at www.cyberneticapress.com



"It's not how much you do - it's how much love you put in it.... Do  
small things with great love."
             --- Mother Teresa ---

The true warrior may be killed, but he can not be defeated.
    --- my paraphrase of Sensei Hamada ---

And peace rolled down like a mighty river.
        -- Inspired by the prophet Amos 5:24--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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