LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: failure notice (now criminality)

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:40:21 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (321 lines)

Doug, we haven't met. I like your analysis - interesting. Yes, tribal  
as S2 with police maintaining system boundaries. I like it.
Were it intelligence or something else - not sure what - the cohesion  
would emenate from S5. The real PROBLEM with tribal is that it is S2  
(anti-oscillatory) and not S5 (closure).

Roger
On 15 Oct 2008, at 20:41, allenna leonard wrote:

> Dear Doug,
>
>
> I'm sure you are right that a good portion of criminality is a  
> version of tribal conflict. Gangs are the obvious example. The Mafia  
> moved into a power vacuum in Italy where the government's reach  
> didn't extend to Sicily. They brought that to the US where I think  
> the initial thrust was tribal - Sicilians against other immigrants  
> who used criminal activity to get ahead.
>
> But, that started to get diffuse.  Some had better opportunities in  
> legitimate businesses and others moved into legitimate businesses  
> without planning to play by the rules. They were very active where I  
> grew up, near Wilkes-Barre, PA both in activities that were normally  
> criminal and others that involved civil wrongdoing.  The major  
> example of the latter was that they took up anthracite(shaft) mining  
> and didn't obey the safety regulations.  Miners who were only using  
> one advance bore hole burst through into the Susquehanna River and  
> the accident killed 19 men and the industry. That was a big  
> financial blow to the whole area including themselves. Same might be  
> said of their waste disposal companies.  The Wilkes-Barre SMSA had  
> the highest death rate in the US in the 1960 census.
>
> My own guess (which may be a different expression of yours) is that  
> criminality is a feature of the narrowing of self-interest - in the  
> limit almost to a vanishing point.  So, it could be tribal as  
> opposed to the larger group but it could also be an individual who  
> steals from his or her family. It is interesting in this regard that  
> sociopaths can be valued in organizations - as long as their  
> energies are directed in paths that benefit others as well as  
> themselves.
>
> Best,
> Allenna
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 10/15/08, Douglas McDavid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> From: Douglas McDavid <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Fw: failure notice
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 1:56 PM
>> Hi Allenna --
>>
>> Thought I'd make a couple of comments back to you.  I
>> can't seem to be able
>> to post to the listserv.  My posts get rejected because of
>> a gif
>> attachment, though I have no idea where such attachments
>> would come from.
>>
>> Oh well.
>>
>> I wonder how much so-called criminality is actually clashes
>> among diverse
>> cultural groups.  A mafia really is a family.  Where
>> various tribal units
>> rub together, there is often friction, where each side
>> considers the
>> other's actions to be "criminal".  One such
>> tribe is the old boy group you
>> allude to, and of course that is portioned off to some
>> unknown number of
>> sub-tribes.
>>
>> The tribal stuff (culture) is pretty much an aspect of S2
>> (I think).  The
>> police actions in response to perceived crimes are about
>> maintaining the
>> system boundary.  This is one modeling thought that I
>> appreciate in
>> Miller's work (that the boundary is one of the 19
>> subsystems).
>>
>> That black black box effect is rampant in tainted toys,
>> pharmaceuticals,
>> etc. being shipped around globally.  Of course there is a
>> huge and growing
>> business in homeland security,  But king of crop right now
>> is the
>> 40X-leveraged derivative on a toxic stock of fraudulently
>> marketed
>> foreclosures-in-waiting.
>>
>> This _is_ the information age, or at least it seems to need
>> to be.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> McD
>>
>> Oh, P.S.  I am about to join a project already in progress
>> in Shenzhen.
>> Maybe 3-6 months, if it works out, with a few weeks home
>> interspersed
>> throughout.  Should be interesting.
>>
>> Doug McDavid
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 408-927-1565 (IBM tie-line: 457)
>> Business Architect -- Global Business Services and Almaden
>> Research Center
>> IBM Academy of Technology (
>> http://www-306.ibm.com/ibm/academy/index.html )
>> Doug Mandelbrot in Second Life
>> ( http:slurl.com/secondlife/Zeus/218/191/22 )
>> Board Member, New Media Consortium ( http://www.nmc.org/)
>> Blog: http://dougmcdavid.com/blog/
>> "I start things, but I never" -- D. Stahl
>> (Twitter)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>           allenna leonard
>>
>>           <allenna_leonard@
>>
>>           yahoo.com>
>>             To
>>           Sent by: Forum
>> [log in to unmask]
>>           dedicated to the
>>          cc
>>           work of Stafford
>>
>>           Beer
>>     Subject
>>           <UCD-STAFFORDBEER         Fw: failure
>> notice
>>           @LISTSERV.HEANET.
>>
>>           IE>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>           10/15/2008 07:26
>>
>>           AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>           Please respond to
>>
>>           allenna_leonard@y
>>
>>               ahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oops - typo
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I've been overcommitted in other areas and so have
>>> barely been able to read, never mind participate in
>> the
>>> recent discussions. This response will be partial but
>> can
>>> perhaps add somewhat to Stafford's ideas about
>>> criminality.
>>>
>>> The first point is that he didn't regard criminals
>> as
>>> very different from the people in the plutocracy that
>> always
>>> (and often perfectly legally) arranged matters so that
>> they
>>> got the benefit and others absorbed the costs. The
>> outright
>>> criminals probably did less damage because they were
>> out in the open and
>>> somewhat contained by the law than the old boy
>> networks at
>>> the top who feathered their own nests at the expense
>> of
>>> their communities or their countries.  And, he
>> remarked more
>>> than once, at least they weren't hypocrites to
>> boot.
>>>
>>> He told a story about an Indian colleague who lamented
>> his
>>> country's level of thievery demonstrated by the
>> fact
>>> that a trainload of grain would arrive at its remote
>>> destination barely half full.  Stafford replied (the
>> purpose
>>> of a system being what it does) that they seemed to
>> have
>>> developed a very efficient distribution system for the
>>> grain.
>>>
>>> Stafford agreed with Deming that the failure is in the
>>> systems rather than in the individuals 9 times out of
>> 10.
>>> My colleague Bill Bradshaw with whom I worked on the
>> audit
>>> projects for the Canadian Institute of Chartered
>> Accountants
>>> held similar views.  If the safeguards aren't
>> built in
>>> to the system, the temptation will prove to be too
>> much -
>>> either to someone who is greedy and unscrupulous or to
>>> someone who simply has a compelling need for more
>> money and
>>> no legitimate way to get it. A strong system of
>> management
>>> control like the VSM makes it very difficult to cheat
>> at a
>>> material level.
>>>
>>> In the analogy to cancer - many cancers seem to arise
>>> because the body depletes its toxin removing
>> capacities or
>>> because its immune systems become weak.  Indeed cancer
>>> prevention measures include limiting exposure to
>> toxins and
>>> eating lots of berries to help get rid of them.
>> Governance
>>> measures can also be designed to improve the immune
>> systems
>>> of organizations not just to discourage criminality,
>>> political gamesmanship and internal competition but to
>>> reward innovation, improve transparency and foster
>> attitudes
>>> of attentiveness and adaptation.
>>>
>>> Phillip Gueddemi made a presentation at the ASC
>> Conference
>>> last spring that talked about the design of black
>> 'black
>>> boxes' so that both financial products (like
>> packaged
>>> loans) and tangible products like processed meat and
>> goods
>>> shipped in containers had such low variety filtration
>> on the
>>> front end that pretty much anything could be in them.
>> Like
>>> with Schrodinger's Cat, you didn't know until
>> you
>>> opened the box and/or ate the meat.
>>>
>>> Stafford certainly did approve of the function of the
>>> police although he was suspicious of the forces'
>>> tendencies to attract people with right wing values or
>> who
>>> enjoyed power for its own sake.  He was also quite
>> worried
>>> about the power of technology to invade privacy and
>> target
>>> people who might disagree with the powers that be.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Allenna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE)
>> go to:
>> www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager